Gone astray - Our own??

[horsesoldier176]

Mar 1, 2010 16:13:40 GMT -5 @devyn86 said:

It's a pity. I wonder why they don't like the Red Army Man/Woman so much.

Because they know that the U.S. military won WWII, and the Red Army was just a brackish backwater of the war, of no real consequence.

Ask them, they will tell you!

I run into that attitude so often, I stopped being offended.

Ignorance is bliss.

Boridin

[Teaglass holder]

Ah - it goes deeper than just cultural myopia with Soviet things.

It's this old McCarthyite paranoia of all things Communist.

In Europe, most people believe it's a flawed system. It just doesn't work and that's as far as it goes.

However, for some reason in the States, there are people who regard them as something along the lines of baby-eating Satan worshipers.

They know this to be true because they've never actually met any real Communists. By this I don't mean silly college kids who are trying to be rebellious, but real, card carrying members of the Communist Party.

So what are they like? Well, they don't have horns on their heads, or kerb-stomp people.

In fact they're usually declared pacifists, and some have jaw dropping collections of original Soviet gear, and so long as they don't get too wasted they're good fun really, except when they get the extra dull edition of "Contemporary Applications of Marxist Theory" off the shelf in which case you're in for a rather long night.

Bef knows who I'm talking about! ;D

And with the exception of having amazing collections, and getting wasted all the time, they're all like that really.

[Teaglass holder]

Further to this I'd add, I would recommend reading the Communist Manifesto to get an idea of what Communism is about, and how the core ideas expressed in it really differed from how the practical attempts at implimenting them became.

In the briefest of summaries, Marx clearly stated that a true Communist state could only come about through three stages of a society's development.

In the first stage there is the feudal system - an absolute monarch, his court, and a peasant underclass supporting them.

This then develops into a capitalist society with the rise of the bourgeoisie who own the means of production provided by the labour of the proletariat.

Finally there is the inevitable rise of the proletariat who through education and the desire for betterment gradually erode the distinctions between the social classes eventually creating a situation where the skills and abilities of each are met by another without distinction or preference.

It's inevitable - BUT - until the distinctions between the classes are truly and irevocably removed, any attempt at a Communist society is doomed to ultimate failure.

Now, this state of affairs isn't going to happen in any of our lifetimes or even that of our children. Eventually, maybe, probably, but not now.

So what we see in countries like the Soviet Union and China was the misguided attempt to force the issue and bring Communism about through violent revolution.

In other words, they jumped the gun, such was the desire of the people to rid themselves of their despotic feudal leaders.

So the violence and death that occured in these nations was not as a result of the political idea that was attempted, but of the very violent and bloody nature of these nations to begin with.

To give you an example of what I mean by this - when Peter the Great wanted, above all things, to modernise the Russian state. So he decided to build a city from scratch that would act as a showcase for this modernisation.

Concripting a huge army of serfs and Swedish prisoners he begain building expanding the area around a fortress on at the estuary of the Neva river.

As you can imagine health and safety and good living conditions were not a priority for these workers and tens of thousands of them died building the city which became St Petersburg.

The point in hindsight was that it achieved it's purpose.

So we can see it was ever thus, life was cheap in 1703, and it was still cheap in 1937 when the five year plans were in effect that led to the Purges needed, again, to provide the necessary labour force.

Again, they achieved their purpose, which was to advance a near feudal country to one capable of winning the most horrific war in history and putting a man in space in a mere fifty years.

It's not good what happened either in 1703 or 1937 - but it's the way history has played out not only for Russia, but in a variety of different, but yet similar ways for all of the developed nations.

The only aberration to this was the case of Nazi Germany which blindly followed a distorted and inconsistent hybrid policy of Nietzschen theory and Social Darwinism to support organised mass-murder carried out for no practical reason than Nihilistic destruction.

[horsesoldier176]

Communism is a great idea. It utterly breaks down, as soon as you add two people, because there will always be competition for resources. It is the "natural" order of things. Just watch two babies in a room with one toy. They will fight over it, until one wins the toy, but the other doesn't just give up, he schemes as to how he can win it back.

God made man this way, and no amount of political re-education, or effort will change this!

Besides, if we humans, in our arrogance, actually changed the nature of man, to be less competitive, we would then also remove that instinct in man that causes us to look for new, or better things, be it inventions, innovations, or new lands, etc.

Man, utterly devoid of any will, drive, or desire to achieve anything. we would then no longer be man, but a mere confederation of cells, worth nothing, at all, save our component chemical, and molecular matter.

Certainly not the way I want to live!

Leshod

[daveww2]

I got recruited by the Communists while I was walking a Picket line during a strike. I didn't care for it at all. Years later I had my eyes opened to the corruption of unions (especially the Teamsters.) Don't get me wrong the American Business world is fouled up and those they make managers are fouled up big time and as soon as they pull their heads out of their rears, maybe Unions can go bye, bye. I am now a member of SEIU -- don't get started there. Those that think public employee Unions are a good idea...

Communism is NOT what the spoiled rich brat & blurry eyed believers think it is. Unfortunately most don't learn the truth until it's too late and they find themselves in the Re-Education camp, Gulag or standing in front of a Firring Squad. I wonder how many of the Che shirt idiots would be fans if they really knew the man and what he did?

I reenact and learn about the Red Army out of respect for the Common everyday (man/woman) Soldier and my love of history and fascination with WW II -- not for the political ideology. Stalin was an evil murdering bastard who was no better than his long lost brother Adolph. National Socialism and Communism are pretty much the same thing in my book.

Nothing wrong with knowing the ways of your enemies, though.

Hey, I think it was great Hitler attacked his brother Stalin. Could you imagine if the western allies would have had to face a Germany backed by the CCCP & Japan? My heart breaks at the level of death & suffering endured by the Soviet people -- at Hitler's hands and Stalin's hands. We in the west owe them (the people) much -- that's one of the reasons I reenact the Red Army, just to remind people that the Americans, British Commonwealth & some of the other allied nations didn't win the war on their own -- they had a little help from a a disgruntled Totalitarian family member.

Just say'n...

DaaaHVeeD

[vsahdneek]

Communism
predicated on the idea you can pick up a turd by the clean end ! LOL !

Marx, a man so lazy some of his kids starved to death, and had no problem assigning 'racial trash' to the gulags or firing squads if they had happened during his lifetime. Lenin, the man who allowed Trotsky to initiate the 'red terror' which in turn led to the Russian Civil War that left millions dead, starved, and murdered the Czar and his family. Stalin, a man who probably murdered as many soviet citizens as died in ww2 at the front and as a result of his scorched earth policy.

Communism ... a good idea ? the only color in the communist world view is red, the blood of the people spilled everywhere to serve the evil monsters and experimenters who run the party and the secret police that carry out its mayhem, rape, murder, slavery,and torture.

A lie from beginning to end, a delusion, a process of unbridled lust and insanity.
Find me ONE example of communism that was not based on murder, theft and slavery.
There aren't any. The Manifesto is a sales pitch to the ignorant masses, the reality is a slave state that denies God and Morality and Humanity and treats people like any other form of capital to be used by the state for the unbridled lusts of the leadership, most of whom turn on each other at some point.

Sorry, but I am one who does believe that communism fell out of satan's butt and the political dungbeetles of the world jump for joy in eager anticipation when he is about to take a dump. They can't wait to try his evil theories out on the rest of us ... and in current context, Ohbummerscare was crafted by commie eugenisists and will F us all if passed and enacted, not help the average person in the US at all, and probably further tank our fragile and weakened economy.

No Sir, I don't like it.
Not a bit.

I reenact RKKA precisely to be able to discuss the evils of communism with others, to have fun at tacticals, and to mourn those who were oppressed by the most evil of all human ideologies other than cannibalism, voodoo, and witchcraft in its many guises. It is also an excuse to study their technology, which was about the only thing they seemed to care about producing with any real diligence.

Adolph's excesses were a response to Red excesses, and without communism, I doubt he would have been able to elicit the support of the right in Europe to counter bolshevism whcih would not have been a problem. Without bolshevism and its murders and terror what would he have run on ? Even his pitch about the jews was primarily a pitch against their ties to communism and their 'asiatic tendencies'. He perched himself in the middle of the road, economically, as a friend to the worker against jewish banksters on the one hand, and as a defender of western civilization against jew-bolsheviks leading the east on the other hand,
and a moralist against jew-homosexuals internally, and the bauhaus and kunst bad art jews as well. By taking the drek of euro-trash excesses and finding the jewish part in it, he was able to take the Euopean distrust of things foreign and turn it into a hygene issue re jew dna,
and then launch a political pogram against a whole horde of enemies, most of whom were not even jews, and even the camp documents attest to this, as there were more non-jews in the camps than jews. He filled his labor camps the same way Stalin did, and that was by finding internal enemies here and there, and when he ran out of them its off to war to get POW's.

Stalin was no different, and in point of fact, it was the SS who learned mostly how to do its work by studying the bolshevik-Stalinist system during the non-aggression pact years.
This has all been documented in an excellent documentary entitled "The Soviet Story" recently made by a Russian writer and director. A total must see. I also recommend "Russia's War: Blood on the Snow".

It will remove any doubt in your mind about the depths of evil to which communism was willing to sink in the USSR.

Given unbridled power over the USA I am sure I could create a shining and powerful state that was a total collossus amongst nations and restore the USA to total world supremacy.
You don't mind if I murder 50 milion in the process do you and commit us to ww3, eh?
and steal all their wealth using show trails, and submit others to horrible medical experiments for the good of that fiction called 'the state' ? and cause the rest to live in abject fear, always waiting for the knock on the door in the middle of the night ? only to have this society collapse, say 70 years later. Oh, I'm sorry, but that is precisely what happened to the USSR.
Even Putin, a former bigshot in the KGB sez basically now "Don't go there". And Medvedev decries the carnage.

Marx and Hitler were both Darwinists, except that Marx focussed on class theory and Hitler on race. Anyone who thinks murdering a whole class of people is any better than murdering a whole race of people to 'advance society' is just pecans, cashews and walnuts. The libtards who think somehow communism is like being a hippy or something do not seem to know what really happened to the other liberals during the Red Revolutions that have occured in the last 100 years ... they end up in the cuisenart of communism just like anyone else once the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' begins.

I did not vote for Ohbummer or his view of 'benign marxism' and live to see him in prison for being a fraudster and illegal alien.

The average RKKA soldat fought for the same reasons anyone fights ... to expell an invader, for the sake of the soldats in their unit, for fear of prison or firing squad should they desert,
because soldiering is their profession, or because they fear what will happen to their homeland during an enemy occupation. Few were party members before, during, or after the war, although the party did make it easy to join as a fund raising drive during the war. I doubt they worried about a change in post war party policy, as most of those recruited during this period for the party probably died at the front.

Rule one, politicians lie to the people to get into office, and lie even more once in office.
And lie once they start breaking their promises or doing criminal things to stay in power.
Those who commit crimes to get into power basically continue to do so to stay in power.
Communism almost always is the result of criminal activity for the revolutionary cabal, and thus
it colors their regime until if fails. Communism is not based on western morality. In fact, it is not based on morality at all. In practice, it only serves state expediency and a greedy leadership.

I work in a union shop, and the union has its share of marxists and pseudo-marxists in it, and it is as much a class oriented and cliquish organization as any I have ever seen. Class and distinction I believe are so ingrained in humanity that it is a vain hope to think communism or any other ideology could ever be rid of it. Even in communism, the party was the top class, then the secret police, then the military, then the quiet worker, then the gulag slave, then the corpse. Many from all classes ended up in that last class and most without having done aything to deserve it, they just got on a list or were unjustly denounced for noncrimes, real or imagined, or so the party could say they had 'unearthed a plot' to keep everyone in a state of constant fear so they were easier to manipulate.

If you are looking for a utopian la la land ideology to believe in so that the trees in your world will look pretty and you can dance like a hippy, I suggest a steady diet of hallucinogens, yoga, and/or become a Hari-Krishna and move to an eastern relgion commune. But don't bother with communism. It is, was, and will always be a hellish bloodbath.

The libturd commies here who seem 'normal' only do so because they do not in point of fact actually live in a commie state under commie standards and are free to talk out their butts whenever they want here ! In a real communist state, you are given a little phrase book to learn and to recite when told to do so and that's it ! you show up when told to do so at a rally and that's it ! you go to the front when told to do so to clean mines and that's it ! you fail to do any of the above or show up late to work and BOOM it's off to the gulag for you or its a pistol shot in the back of the head or its off to experiment camp without anesthesia !

Ooops, I heard a bunch of bubbles popping ... sorry if I ruined anyones wet dream of a worker's utopia.

Worker's Utopia ... a oxymoron if there ever was one ... In my utopia I don't have to work ! LOL ! work is REAL and its what you have to do to eat HERE. Heaven is a Utopia, and its God's version of Utopia and if you get there you better like it ! or you go to the other place ! LOL !
How is it that all these butthead-egghead 'utopias' always seem to end up as a HELL ON EARTH Maybe we should consign utopia to the spritual world and just try to make our 'reality' BEARABLE. Every oppression and state criminal activity always seems to be the result of politicians promising 'utopias'.

If you hear a politician promising utopia, its about as sure a sign as you can get that he or she is a lying sack of *#^$* and is a danger to your freedom and livelihood and personal property ! Under NO circumstances ever vote for such a D-Bag !!!

Volodymyr

[Teaglass holder]

So I'm a lib-turd? Thanks, I love you too.

Marx, a man so lazy some of his kids starved to death, and had no problem assigning 'racial trash' to the gulags or firing squads if they had happened during his lifetime.

You mean 'Völkerabfälle' - that came from Engels alone. Moreover this was not written as a statement of what “Germany’s neighbors should accept,” but what took place historically.

Here is what Engels actually wrote in 1852:

These dying nationalities, the Bohemians, Carinthians, Dalmatians, etc., had tried to profit by the universal confusion of 1848, in order to restore their political status quo of A. D. 800. The history of a thousand years ought to have shown them that such a retrogression was impossible; that if all the territory east of the Elbe and Saale had at one time been occupied by kindred Slavonians, this fact merely proved the historical tendency, and at the same time physical and intellectual power of the German nation to subdue, absorb, and assimilate its ancient eastern neighbors.

What this is saying is that Engles is pointing out how history shows the futility of nationalities that had been under the domination of others for centuries and how they cannot roll the clock back a thousand years to regain their lost glories.

He neither advocated nor necessarily believed that "Germany’s neighbors" should accept such a historical development.

Lenin, the man who allowed Trotsky to initiate the 'red terror' which in turn led to the Russian Civil War that left millions dead, starved, and murdered the Czar and his family.

The Red Terror was a response to the White Terror that existed both during the Grazhdansky Voina and indeed long before it - Bloody Sunday and the Okhrana ring any bells perhaps?

The murder of the Tzar was caused because the District Commander of the local Soviet in Ekaterinburg panicked and asked for permission from Sverdlov when he learnt that White forces were advancing on the city.

Communism ... a good idea ? the only color in the communist world view is red, the blood of the people spilled everywhere to serve the evil monsters and experimenters who run the party and the secret police that carry out its mayhem, rape, murder, slavery,and torture.

A lot of vitrol and emotive words without any substance or real information behind them - the shoddiest type of cheap tabloid writing.

You've called me a turd - so don't feel offended if I start ripping into you in response.

There aren't any. The Manifesto is a sales pitch to the ignorant masses, the reality is a slave state that denies God and Morality and Humanity.

Ditto - and I should have guessed the religious element would come in somewhere.

... and treats people like any other form of capital to be used by the state for the unbridled lusts of the leadership, most of whom turn on each other at some point.

(smiles) I'm not going to get sidetracked into the geo-politics of the last ten years here.

Sorry, but I am one who does believe that communism fell out of satan's butt and the political dungbeetles of the world jump for joy in eager anticipation when he is about to take a dump.

Yuk. How old are you?

They can't wait to try his evil theories out on the rest of us ... and in current context, Ohbummerscare was crafted by commie eugenisists...

You've lost me here. Is this something to do with putting fluoride in tap water?

and will F us all if passed and enacted, not help the average person in the US at all, and probably further tank our fragile and weakened economy.

I don't know enough about US politics to comment fairly, but what
anyone outside of the States does know or care about is that the previous administration managed to drag the whole world into the economic mire.

Adolph's excesses were a response to Red excesses, and without communism, I doubt he would have been able to elicit the support of the right in Europe to counter bolshevism whcih would not have been a problem.

No - like everything he did he played to the gallery, of people's fears who had come through the worst war in history and had been left bankrupt and humiliated. Taking a range of different political ideas from the left and the right and presenting them in different ways depending on who his audience was at the time. Just like a con-artist reeling in their next mark.

Without bolshevism and its murders and terror what would he have run on ?

Restoring German pride and creating order out of the chaos of the Weimar Republic?
Playing up to fears of Bolshevism was how he elicited the support of the middle classes in Germany - that's just one Socio-economic grouping. For other segments of German society he focused on different things.

Even his pitch about the jews was primarily a pitch against their ties to communism and their 'asiatic tendencies'. He perched himself in the middle of the road, economically, as a friend to the worker against jewish banksters on the one hand, and as a defender of western civilization against jew-bolsheviks leading the east on the other hand,

As I was saying a con-artist pitching different things to different people.

But if you're trying to suggest that Hitler was simply using the Jewish people as merely a harbinger of the greater evil of Communism I would suggest otherwise - I think Hitler regarded Communism as the harbinger of the greater evil of 'Asiatic hordes' - and Jews.

and a moralist against jew-homosexuals internally, and the bauhaus and kunst bad art jews as well. By taking the drek of euro-trash excesses and finding the jewish part in it, he was able to take the Euopean distrust of things foreign and turn it into a hygene issue re jew dna.

The Bauhaus is the drek of Euro-Trash excess? Oh well, each to their own I guess....

and then launch a political pogram against a whole horde of enemies, most of whom were not even jews, and even the camp documents attest to this, as there were more non-jews in the camps than jews.

Because most of the Jewish people who arrived at the camps went up the chimney.

He filled his labor camps the same way Stalin did, and that was by finding internal enemies here and there, and when he ran out of them its off to war to get POW's.

No - he had to go to war because he rebuilt the German economy through munitions production - That's fine for a while, but unless you're going to use them, and in so doing creating a need for replacements to sustain the war production the whole economic plan falls down.

By the way - an Arbeitslager was very different from a Vernichtungslager.

Stalin was no different, and in point of fact, it was the SS who learned mostly how to do its work by studying the bolshevik-Stalinist system during the non-aggression pact years.

Bollocks. They took the idea of concentration camps from what happened in Namiba with the Hereo tribe during the Second Reich.

This has all been documented in an excellent documentary entitled "The Soviet Story" recently made by a Russian writer and director. A total must see. I also recommend "Russia's War: Blood on the Snow".

Wrong - it was made by a Latvian writer and director, and went on the Fox News Channel (of all things). Those facts alone automatically would make me question it's objectivity.

Given unbridled power over the USA I am sure I could create a shining and powerful state that was a total collossus amongst nations and restore the USA to total world supremacy.
You don't mind if I murder 50 milion in the process do you and commit us to ww3, eh?

Isn't that already happening?

and steal all their wealth using show trails,

Trials, and what wealth is that? All property is theft remember?

and submit others to horrible medical experiments for the good of that fiction called 'the state' ?

That's Dr Mengeles.

and cause the rest to live in abject fear, always waiting for the knock on the door in the middle of the night ?

For two years during the Yezovshina. (1937–1938)

only to have this society collapse, say 70 years later. Oh, I'm sorry, but that is precisely what happened to the USSR.

Yes, because the political system had stagnated so critically during the Brezhnev years, and coupled with Regan pushing the USSR into an unsustainable arms race which crippled the economy.

Even Putin, a former bigshot in the KGB sez basically now "Don't go there".

I don't think Putin speaks in psuedo 'valley girl'. Yes, there is a lot of things still classified within the FSB archives. There is in the archives of all countries.

And Medvedev decries the carnage. Yes, because there were the Purges, and other atrocities, and millions did die - but drawing these neat parallels with what the Nazis did is too glib and easy. (Still that's what you excell at isn't it?)

Marx and Hitler were both Darwinists, except that Marx focussed on class theory and Hitler on race.

Fine - I believe in Darwins Theory too. Does this make me Adolf Hitler? The thing is that Hitler also focused on eugenics.

Anyone who thinks murdering a whole class of people is any better than murdering a whole race of people to 'advance society' is just pecans, cashews and walnuts.

When did Marx ever advocate murder? We know Hitler certantly did!

The libtards who think somehow communism is like being a hippy or something do not seem to know what really happened to the other liberals during the Red Revolutions that have occured in the last 100 years ... they end up in the cuisenart of communism just like anyone else once the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' begins.

Really - I'm assuming you're identifying 'Liberal' with the intelligensia. (After all, McCarthy did didn't he?) ....so that is to discount all the writers, artists, actors and composers who continued to produce world-famous works long after 1917 in the USSR.

Right - that's enough sloughing through this lot for one night - but worry ye not, I'll be back to finish the rest later.

[Teaglass holder]

I did not vote for Ohbummer or his view of 'benign marxism' and live to see him in prison for being a fraudster and illegal alien.

Obama is a Marxist? That simply shows how little you know about true left wing politics.

The average RKKA soldat fought for the same reasons anyone fights ... to expell an invader, for the sake of the soldats in their unit, for fear of prison or firing squad should they desert,
because soldiering is their profession, or because they fear what will happen to their homeland during an enemy occupation.

Possibly the only entirely correct thing you've written so far - have a cookie.

Few were party members before, during, or after the war, although the party did make it easy to join as a fund raising drive during the war. I doubt they worried about a change in post war party policy, as most of those recruited during this period for the party probably died at the front.

Okay - and?

Rule one, politicians lie to the people to get into office, and lie even more once in office.
And lie once they start breaking their promises or doing criminal things to stay in power. Those who commit crimes to get into power basically continue to do so to stay in power.

So like Bush and Nixon then - both Republicans.

Communism almost always is the result of criminal activity for the revolutionary cabal, and thus it colors their regime until if fails. Communism is not based on western morality. In fact, it is not based on morality at all. In practice, it only serves state expediency and a greedy leadership.

That's what people say about capitalism as well - it's never worked and fallen into the hands of the corrupt because none of the societies it has been attempted in have been developed enough to accept it.

I work in a union shop,

I'm glad you're not my rep if you speak to bosses in the same way you write on this forum. You'd all be on strike more often than you're actually working!

and the union has its share of marxists and pseudo-marxists in it, and it is as much a class oriented and cliquish organization as any I have ever seen. Class and distinction I believe are so ingrained in humanity that it is a vain hope to think communism or any other ideology could ever be rid of it. Even in communism, the party was the top class, then the secret police, then the military, then the quiet worker, then the gulag slave, then the corpse. Many from all classes ended up in that last class and most without having done aything to deserve it, they just got on a list or were unjustly denounced for noncrimes, real or imagined, or so the party could say they had 'unearthed a plot' to keep everyone in a state of constant fear so they were easier to manipulate.

It's taken all this to finally get to something worth writing about. What you say is true for today, but it is hard to say how society will evolve and develop in the next three hundred years. One time people worked in primary and secondary industries, which then moved to the east.

Now China is going through its own industrial revolution and the people will demand a higher standard of living, and so the cost of labour will rise, and so in turn will the price of goods.

So when the whole world is on relatively equal footing, and there are no vast poor job markets to exploit, profits for companies of all sorts will naturally be much lower. Without vast numbers of unemployed people, competition will drive wages up dramatically, again cutting into profits.

Labourers and Consumers will enjoy constantly increasing sway in all markets, while those who control the factors of production will have to be more and more atune to labourer's and consumer's needs and wants to actually attain a profit.

Jobs that currently pay low wages, such as farming and factory work will have to pay substantially higher wages, since the demand for food and manufactured goods will be so high and there will be no impoverished markets to draw cheap labour and manufacturing from.

Pretty much all jobs will have to pay relatively equal wages. It's a basic function of capitalism; that if one job pays unduly high wages, people will flock to it until wages are competed down, and that if one job pays unduly low wages, people will not want to work in it unless wages are raised. When you have a future in which all people are on equal footing, the wages for all jobs will have to be essentially cometed down to paying wages that are overall much more comprable than they are now.

With all the competition squeezing out massive profits and the differences in wages, Capitalism seemingly leads to a place not unlike the world that Marx envisaged. When the workers are the consumers, and they all have relatively equal sway, they will all fight for their own self interest so vehemently that the power of producers will seemingly fade away until there is barely any sort of profit left to be made.

If you are looking for a utopian la la land ideology to believe in so that the trees in your world will look pretty and you can dance like a hippy, I suggest a steady diet of hallucinogens, yoga, and/or become a Hari-Krishna and move to an eastern relgion commune. But don't bother with communism. It is, was, and will always be a hellish bloodbath.

Back to just writing a list of things you don't like with lots of value words - you have no real supported point or argument to make here.

The libturd commies here who seem 'normal' only do so because they do not in point of fact actually live in a commie state under commie standards and are free to talk out their butts whenever they want here !

You talk about me as if you know anything about me or where I live.

In a real communist state, you are given a little phrase book to learn and to recite when told to do so and that's it !

You do that in school in the States as well - come on!

you show up when told to do so at a rally and that's it ! you go to the front when told to do so to clean mines and that's it !

You mean civilian workers building defence lines outside Moscow and Leningrad? It was all hands to the pump!

you fail to do any of the above or show up late to work and BOOM it's off to the gulag for you or its a pistol shot in the back of the head or its off to experiment camp without anesthesia !

Again, you're confusing Dr Mengeles with the Gulag. All of the above? You could have real problems if you transgressed with all of the above you mention, but it certantly wasn't a given that somebody was waiting with a smoking Nagant at the factory gates at 9:20 am! You take a few examples of what could happen and then automatically apply them to each and every situation. Life and history isn't like that.

Ooops, I heard a bunch of bubbles popping ... sorry if I ruined anyones wet dream of a worker's utopia.

Ah right - so it takes a foul mouthed guy I've never met, who can't formulate a single rational arguement to save his life, and who takes Fox news as his point of reference to show me the folly of my ways?

What breath-taking arrogance!

Worker's Utopia ... a oxymoron if there ever was one ... In my utopia I don't have to work ! LOL ! work is REAL and its what you have to do to eat HERE. Heaven is a Utopia, and its God's version of Utopia and if you get there you better like it ! or you go to the other place ! LOL !

So you don't find the actual action of doing work a fufilling thing in itself?

How is it that all these butthead-egghead 'utopias' always seem to end up as a HELL ON EARTH Maybe we should consign utopia to the spritual world and just try to make our 'reality' BEARABLE. Every oppression and state criminal activity always seems to be the result of politicians promising 'utopias'.

A bit like Western politicians who try to wholesale export Western democracy on third world nations? These nations invariably end up in chaos and anarchy, but at least they're free right?

If you hear a politician promising utopia, its about as sure a sign as you can get that he or she is a lying sack of *#^$* and is a danger to your freedom and livelihood and personal property ! Under NO circumstances ever vote for such a D-Bag !!!

Maybe so - but I think you're what you're trying to do here and indeed through the whole of your 'discourse' is to mix your own personal political agenda with historical debate - ie comparing the Democrats with Stalinist rule of the Thirties!

If you'd ever lived in another country you'd see how ludicrous that sounds - especially to a foreigner!

Good grief, is that it? - What a trek!

Devyn - you mentioned that people in other countries hate people from the States - well, that's not really true. It's only people like this guy who annoy people from abroad. The people who gob off as if they have ultimate truth, and start shouting down to anybody who disagrees with their point of view with streams of obscenities and invective.

Not very good ambassadors, but unfortunately they're the ones who get remembered.

[horsesoldier176]

Well, clearly this discussion needs to be moved to the "Heated Discussions" section, as it has strayed WAY off topic, of this thread.

Boridin

[horsesoldier176]

I'm all for the open discussion of topics, and do not think that the topic should be banned, or anything of the sort, but it doesn't belong in this thread.

Now, as to what needs to be done to create a POTW (Picture of the Week) section for this forum, I would love to see it!

Boridin

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

I am glad to see that you folks have leveled out. I have to say you folks really covered the field but you did it without getting too crazy. LOL!

You see, other Mods like Dahveeeeed, Martin, Gunny and the like on their forums would have had a stroke and would have strapped on their testosterone injectors and began beating their chests, making threats, deleting posts and eventually locking the thread. Perhaps even a New Zea lander threatening to use his baton on forum members. That won't happen here unless you use foul language or go so crazy that your ranting is even more than I can take. Censorship is not how we roll on this forum. We prefer the more mature route.

I will take the postings which deviate from the original post and move it to heated discussions where it can live or die by the choice of the collective.

Again I thank all of you for not going nuclear and making a real mess out of things.

As always keep up the good work and try to make this forum an exchange of ideas which are constructive and useful.

Good luck and good hunting.

Sincerely,

Dima
(one who does not micro manage like other MODS)

[vsahdneek]

I agree Dima in moving this to the 'heated discussions post area'. No arguments here on that point ! thank you for your consideration.

Now that the thread is over here, I can give this topic the rant it deserves with less formality as per a variety of post I have read here in days gone by when dealing with the trolls from that 'other' forum.


Skipping back a few posts.Teaglass holder is certainly typical of libo-denialists who worship at the font of Marxian dogma and denial of its horror, and typical of those who wish to stay anonymous, embarrassed at their holding unsupportable and unpopular pro-communist views.

I am an unabashed conservative and proud of it, but libo's rarely like to be ID'ed as libo's.

I stand by everything I say. He picked out one quote from Engels ... where does Engels start and Marx end ? Engels was Marx's scribe ... its like trying to tell the difference between Socrates and Plato ... and mere hairsplitting. A professor in the Soviet Story video validates the 'racial trash' quote as coming from Marx and that they would have to be swept away as they were 2 or more generations behind in social evolution and would not 'survive' the revolution.

Teabag holder needs to see the videos I have mentioned. He hasn't and therefore speaks from gross ignorance and his criticisms are laughable, uninformed, or based on pure polemics... and he defends the indefensible. COMMUNISM and its legacy of 120 million DEAD. The body count of communism outstrips ALL other political ideologies throughout history. Period. And that is enough to toss it on the ash heap of history and to prove its inhumanity and hypocrisy. Killing people in the name of the people for the benefit of the people. What great logic to believe in ! for a state with no God ? and he worries about a single nazi doctor and 'eugenics' ? amazing set of values you have, komrade teabag ! The sawed in half skulls and piles of shoes including children's at the Gulags are FACT and shown in the films I mentioned.

The videos are well documented, complete with video of documents signed by Stalin and Beria amongst others. The Soviet Story video predates any attempt to put it on Fox, and was not contracted by them. But they had the courage to put it on. It has been on a variety of theaters as well and is available on line.

Deny reality all you like, anonymous 'teaglass holder'. No one on this end is buying communist apologetics.

I am reminded of an ole song lyric by the B-52's

Teaglass holder is from Planet Claire, all his trees are red. No one there has any hair. No one has a head !

LOL !

Teabag holder sounds alot like other rather useless visitors we have had from that 'other' proboards forum ... he reminds me of a rather useless 'doc' of sociology I once took a seminar with who was in love with yugoslav communism and probably drives an old yugo and resents that he made little more for his academic scribbling than the union custodians who cleaned his red hovel of an office ! LOL !

So go ahead, teabagloid ! continue to please demonstrate your abject ignorance of the evils of the red terror and the endless purges. The SS surveyed the gulags and the NKVD was very happy to show Himmler how little food you needed to feed your inmates to keep them working ! But go ahead and be an ostrich if you like, there is a whole demo-lib party out there of fellow ostriches for you to hang out with while you work on tanking the economy with socialist healthscare and deficit ballooning.

Oh, right, you don't believe Ohbummer was an avid reader of Saul Alinski, who was a textbook US marxist. You probably also believe that the SDS and Weathermen had no connections to the Cubans who in turn were clients to the USSR.

Hey teabagboy! newsflash ! the USSR FELL and communism is in ROUT.
So why defend the indefensible ? what's the point ? join the fun of commie bashing !
its a great way to vent ! the truth will set you free, teabaggedyboy !

Okay, enough fun at your expense for one day komrade teabagski! don't forget to refill that valium prescription ! I think the funniest thing about komrades like teabagovich is that he acts like he still has a commie commissar to answer to and that it is necessary to continue the deceit for the sake of 'consistency' with the 'party line' of commie ballyhoo. . . obviously a result of prolonged red hypnotism and hallucinogen intake. Poor lab subject.

So long for now, komrade manchurian candidate teabagov! Time to play solitaire !
don't play the red queen !

LOL !

Doug Dinsdale, aka Volodymyr
the nastier Pirahna Brother

[Rob]

.....and typical of those who wish to stay anonymous, embarrassed at their holding unsupportable and unpopular pro-communist views.

Not at all - I thought you'd pick up who I was through my writing, but oh well....

No matter, my name's Rob, and you can find out all about me here...

www.livinghistoryworldwide.com/profile/Rob

Surely you could see from my writing that I'm not American, I don't live in the States, so I have no strong opinions about modern US politics.

It's important to you, and understandly so, but the people who get to sit in the White House and Congress has very little to do with little ol' me.

Nor am I (or ever have been) a Kamm-yoo-nisst. Politically on the liberal left certantly, but even someone who is a mainstream Conservative in Europe would be seen as a liberal in the States.

Anyway going way back to my first point about how some people in the States become completely hysterical whenever anything to do with Communism comes up - well, I think you've well and truly proved my point on that one.

I don't understand people like you, I really don't. Why is it so impossible for you simply disagree with the things I write in a rational and mature fashion?

Do you see me making up stupid ditties or filling every line of text with venomous personal attacks about you?

The crux of what you seem to be saying past all the ranting is you feel my opinion is deeply misguided and clouded by my personal political views. Therefore I really need to watch this documentary to have a more balanced and informed view of this subject.

Okay - if I see it around I will have a look. I still reckon it'll be biased but I naturally can't say without seeing it first.

See - it's not so hard is it? Try acting like a normal adult for once instead of the vile and poisonous man-child you come across as at the moment.

BTW - "teaglass holder" was just my little joke since I go by the moniker Podstakanik on the other forum - just Google it if you're that interested. What's with all the 'teabag' thing? I'm guessing it's not complimentary, but I have to confess that one went straight over my head!

[zayats]

Just Urban Dictionaried 'Teabagging' Well... if it's done between consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes then who am I to object? Each to their own!

All I can say is that Mr. Dinsdale seems much better aquainted about such things than I am!

Anyway, enough foolishness for now....

Mar 10, 2010 17:57:33 GMT -5 @devyn86 said:

Putin, and how Russia is run now? How do you both feel about that? Good or Bad?

Hmmm - Big question! I'll tell you how I see things 'on the ground' so to speak.

First, some background.

There are four main political parties in Russia;

Yedinaya Rossiya - Medvedyev/Putin
Communist Party - Zugarnov
L.D.P.R - Zhirinovsky
A Just Russia - Mironov

Yedinaya Rossiya have the overwhelming majority vote in Russia, and will continue to do so mainly because most people wouldn't want to vote for Zugarnov and return to the former system, and the LDPR despite its name is ultra-nationalistic and its leader Zhirinovsky is a total clown.

The important thing is that Putin, Medvedyev and Yedinaya Rossiya have brought stability to the country where before there was very little.

You can come and visit, walk around the cities in relative safety. You have to be sensible and keep your eyes open of course, but that applies anywhere.

Some of the stories I've heard about how things were in the Nineties are pretty hair-raising, so a lot of progress has been made since that time.

[zayats]

Certantly the irony of the US and UK helping the Mudjahadin rebels in Afganistan, only to have them turn those same weapons and training on Coalition forces a decade later is not lost on Russians. However, recrimiating about the past is pretty pointless now so there is some sharing of intel between the FSB and CIA since there are common security interests at stake.

With helping countries like Haiti, the alternative is to stand by and watch the place completely fall apart. Not a good thing, since todays collapsed anarchic state can well be tomorrows terrorist training camp, so helping the place recover is not only a humanitarian act, it pays dividends both diplomatically and with security in the long term.

I don't know what the deal is with life/home/car insurance and the like but I'm reckoning that the premiums are higher for all of them if you live on the San Andreas fault or in New Orleans than if you live in the Mid West - so it all balances out in the end.

With setting up welfare programs - as I've said, I can't speak for what the States should or shouldn't do - I'm just not au fait enough with the ins and outs.

I can tell you this - the NHS (National Health Service) and the Welfare State was set up in 1947, and it's been going ever since. We have what's called National Insurance (same as Social Security) but the difference is that it's fully comprehensive. Same with State pensions.

It works for us, and any politician who tried to mess with it would be commiting instant political suicide, because to remove it would leave millions of people in the UK (myself included) completely up the creek.

It is very expensive, make no doubt about it, but it does mean that health care is a given right for everybody regardless of the cost. It's the same system in Scandinavian countries, and indeed Russia.

But - could it be set up in the States? To that, I just don't know - I do know it would be Hellishly expensive and complicated to set up. I'm certantly glad I don't have to make the call on that one!

Mar 10, 2010 20:15:43 GMT -5 @devyn86 said:

That is good to know Zayats. One day i would like to visit. My girlfriend her father is from Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine. So maybe one day...Who knows, I would probably get into trouble over there tho. I know the Russian ladies sure are foxy! LOL

Nah - if you've got friends to look after you there you'll be fine....

Ohhhh, sorry, now I understand what you mean! Cold showers and a titanium chastity belt needed for keeping semper fi? Urm... in a word, yep.

Remember that the demographic of guys to girls is massively in our favour - especially in Ukraine!