|
Post by dixieflyer on Jun 15, 2009 7:47:09 GMT -5
Yeah, what Vlad said.
Yuri
|
|
|
Post by horsesoldier176 on Jun 15, 2009 12:35:49 GMT -5
... but we all know how policy is often brushed aside by battlefield necessity, eh, Sr Sgt? Vlad Of course it is. I have done it, you have done it, and most "real" soldiers have done it (BTW: That is a swipe at REMFs, not re-enactors). That having been said, I still stand by the belief that the Red Army was the least tolerant of the use of trophy weapons, or gear. Did it happen, yes, it did, but most soldat would use the weapon, gear, or whatever, and as soon as practicable, would dump it, knowing that the local NKVD, or politruk would give them grief. Now, interestingly, the Red Army encouraged the use of captured artillery, and much of the Axis demolitions that they found. Panzerfausts, grenades, etc. I have even heard that the use of captured mortars, GPMG, and light artillery was not only encouraged, but sections were sent out with the express purpose of finding, and capturing such weapons to turn them on the fascists. While all this is true, I still think that the point of this thread is, for the purpose of re-enacting, we, the Red Army should stay away from using captured weapons as a general rule. If you want to display "Trophy" weapons, and gear at LH events, that is a separate issue. Boridin
|
|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Jun 15, 2009 17:55:44 GMT -5
I have been re-reading Tank Rider these last couple of weeks. Interestingly, I was just reading today about Bessonov finding, keeping, and using and MP40 for a couple of months. He only got rid of it after it jammed and almost got him killed. Actually, I think it was his friend and orderly that snatched it out of his hand and threw it away, handing him the magazine back because he could use the 9mm rounds in it for the Walther P-38 that he had been carrying since '43. Previous to the MP40 he said he only carried the pistol and an e-tool as weapons. He found the e-tool handy for motivating soldiers who had a hard time getting up to take part in assaults. For me and my house, I do not think and MP40 in this squad or that squad is going to give me, or anyone else, any real heartburn. I also don't think it is wrong, if it is documented to the scenario, to see RKKA troops carrying captured weapons. The primary source documents of diaries, accounts, etc. are full of evidence to support it. HOWEVER, I would not like to see a whole group where the majority of troops are armed with captured German weapons at every event they go to. Insofar as new recruits are concerned, well, it has been my very limited experience that most RKKA groups have an abundance of 91/30's, M38 and M44 carbines in the group's collective stashes to use as loaners. I can't see anyone not showing up because they can't get hold of a proper weapon. Yuri
|
|
|
Post by horsesoldier176 on Jun 16, 2009 12:00:11 GMT -5
Who has an extra M-38 carbine?
Who, who?
The 25th is always looking for good condition M-38 carbines, as it is our primary weapon!
Boridin
|
|
|
Post by vsahdneek on Jun 16, 2009 15:10:27 GMT -5
Yessir! I wantz du m38 if'n yee gotz a spare too! me needz!
In general, since we do so many LH events, our primary focus should be being able to show the tourists what the RKKA were most commonly issued, but for sure, we fill in the blanks with a few captured peices from time to time, esp if it helps us increase our firepower to repel the invader, yes? A whole squad with 'lend lease' Garands or K98's would be wrong though, as previous posters have so eloquently said... no argument here.
Vlad
|
|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Jun 16, 2009 15:25:56 GMT -5
To be honest, I am looking to get an M38 before long as I plan on getting Katya to make me gas-powered Maxim. Yuri
|
|
|
Post by crazydima on Jun 23, 2009 13:41:05 GMT -5
Tovarischi,
My intent with this thread on captured weapons is to dispel the re-enactor myth that RKKA troops did not carry and utilize captured weapons.
The standard mantra is that the NKVD or SMERSH or the soldiers superiors would punish them for it and as a result no RKKA soldiers carried them. Well as you can see from the documentation presented that is not the case. Too often a broad brush is used to try to paint fine details.
Many folks in the hobby make a statement or assertion which has no factual basis or documentation to back it up. Sadly after a while it becomes SOP and makes a real mess of things.
This forum and threads like this one are to force folks to do research and not allow re-enactorisms to entrench themselves in the hobby.
If you make an assertion then be prepared to back it up.
Opinions are fine but informed opinions are much better.
Sincerely,
Dima
|
|
|
Post by horsesoldier176 on Jul 3, 2009 13:55:34 GMT -5
To be honest, I am looking to get an M38 before long as I plan on getting Katya to make me gas-powered Maxim. Yuri Tovarisch Stakhanov; As a Russian, Guards unit, you would more likely have had an M-44 carbine, than an M-38 carbine. Keep in mind, the M-38 was considered a second rate weapon system, since it could not mount, or carry a bayonet. Therefore the weapon was pulled from most regular, and Russian units, and sent down to the territorial units, like mine. If you plan on becoming a crewman on a GPMG, you would possibly have a sidearm as well (based more on rank, than need). Your A-gunner might have a subgun just to provide the firepower support, and your ammo humper would have a regular rifle, or perhaps a carbine as well. Boridin
|
|
|
Post by horsesoldier176 on Jul 3, 2009 14:00:59 GMT -5
Dima; I don't disagree with you, but I think we all agree that we want to minimize the use of fascist weapons at tacticals. I would not flip out if one guy in my unit asked to carry a Kar-98, or MP-40, or whatnot once in awhile, but we certainly do not want 50% of a rifles unit showing up with Kar-98s, or whatever. Do you agree with that premise? Boridin Tovarischi, My intent with this thread on captured weapons is to dispel the re-enactor myth that RKKA troops did not carry and utilize captured weapons. The standard mantra is that the NKVD or SMERSH or the soldiers superiors would punish them for it and as a result no RKKA soldiers carried them. Well as you can see from the documentation presented that is not the case. Too often a broad brush is used to try to paint fine details. Many folks in the hobby make a statement or assertion which has no factual basis or documentation to back it up. Sadly after a while it becomes SOP and makes a real mess of things. This forum and threads like this one are to force folks to do research and not allow re-enactorisms to entrench themselves in the hobby. If you make an assertion then be prepared to back it up. Opinions are fine but informed opinions are much better. Sincerely, Dima
|
|
|
Post by jmatchlock on Jul 3, 2009 15:19:18 GMT -5
Here is an orginal picture of a RKKA with an Finnish Knife
|
|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Jul 3, 2009 15:20:26 GMT -5
Sr. Sgt. Boridin, I agree with your logic on this. My logic in using an M38 was that it would be applicable across all time periods, whether early or late war. I'm sure I'll acquire an M44 too. The Maxim is a long way off, and I was reminded the other day that someone else in our unit has one to get adapted, so my acquisition has been pushed back for a while. I too agree that a little goes a long way when it comes to captured weapons. I new recruit asking to carry a 98k to one event is one thing, doing it all the time is another. OTOH, with the current state of MSG prices, I think I would be willing to cut someone more slack if they wanted to carry an MP40. Just my two kopecks on that though. A little seasoning here and there never hurts, but a steady diet of it would not be good.
Yuri
|
|
|
Post by horsesoldier176 on Jul 4, 2009 14:48:09 GMT -5
Here is an orginal picture of a RKKA with an Finnish Knife ...and a Jr. Lt., NOT an enlisted man. Also, remember that Finland was part of Imperial Russia, until 1917, when the Tsar lost control of it. Part of the war in 39/40 was to take back what many Russians believed was rightfully their territory. Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your point of view, Stalin had so decimated the Red Army leadership that they were unable to defeat the Finns. Two of the four major metal helmets used by the Bolshevik forces/early Red Army were Finnish in origin. So to find other Finnish gear in Red Army use it not really all that surprising. Boridin
|
|
|
Post by crazydima on Sept 30, 2009 16:23:07 GMT -5
Tovarischi,
The use of Finnish knives by RKKA forces comes up quite frquently in memoirs and first hand accounts.
When you find a good thing that works then folks tend to use them. The Finnish knives are a good tool and weapon.
Sincerely,
Dima (one who likes research not assumptions to guide re-enacting)
|
|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Oct 1, 2009 10:15:09 GMT -5
I wish I could find a good repro of a Finnish knife, as well as a decent rubber knife and rubber e-tool.
Yuri
|
|
|
Post by crazydima on Oct 1, 2009 10:47:38 GMT -5
Tovarischi,
I am working on Nerf/rubber options of knives and e-tools.
If you are looking for Finnish knives such as the Puuko you might try the Finnish re-enacting site. Or there are some vendors on the web.
Sincerely,
Dima
|
|