Polish Lancers at Joliet

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

I really do not know where to start. I am pretty darn mad. No, I am furious! It is time for some folks to step up and be held accountable.

Around 8:48 PM Friday, October 13, 2006 jeeps of the Polish Lancers began driving up and down the back side of the firing range berm at the JTA. The paths of the jeeps came dangerously close (a few feet) of the Russian tents at the base of the berm. This reckless behavior was dangerous and placed the safety of my squad at risk as well as our tents and equipment.

Then on Saturday in the late morning this same unit has one of its jeeps involved in an accident in the operations area which resulted in various injuries to the riders and sent them to the hospital. Tactical operations were delayed for several hours while the mess was sorted out.

If I was a betting man I would bet that this will be our first and last time at the JTA. I hope I am wrong.

So the charter for the Polish Lancers was approved at Rockford eh? Who were the Einsteins who voted to approve it? What is it going to take to get these reckless folks out of the picture? Do they have to maim or kill someone? So now that they are part of HRS what is going to happen?

Many of us repeatedly warned the BOD of the reckless nature of this unit yet their charter was still approved? Are you folks crazy? Do you folks understand what "liability" means?

Have people forgotten about the Lancers and their driver-less jeep at Lowell? Have folks forgotten about their actions at Ft. McCoy driving through wooded areas where no roads existed and driving over saplings to make a path?

Here is an excerpt from Dave Fornell's email to the S & A committee on 8/17/2006:

[glow=red,2,300]"I would personally vote at the next HRS meeting to bring the Poles into the HRS so they feel more compelled to follow the rules. It would also give their unit COs ammunition to keep guys in line who they are having issues with by telling them the group could lose their insurance if they HRS boots them out."[/glow]

Well folks we see how well that plan worked! Any other great ideas?

Here are the first three sentences of my August 17, 2006 email reply to Fornell's email to the S & A committee regarding the subject of the Polish Lancers and their safety Track record.

[glow=red,2,300]"I fear that bringing this unit into HRS would be a big mistake. These folks have a long track record of bad behavior and they do not seem to care. If allowed to continue on their current course they will probably get someone hurt."[/glow]

I will be submitting a formal complaint regarding the Friday night Jeeps vs Berm incident. I am currently collecting written statements from my riflemen who witnessed the incident. Once I have accumulated the necessary documentation I will submit it.

This situation has gotten out of control and requires immediate attention. Some folks in positions of power have put the HRS at risk and it is time for them to fix the mess that they have created.

I can assure you that if I or any of my men are injured as a result of the actions of the Lancers in the future that serious action will be taken and it is going to be an expensive lesson in liability.

No hugs and kisses here Comrades!

Sincerely,

Dima
(the very angry & disappointed one!)

[blacst]

donkey nibbly bits I missed one hell of a party didn't I

Sorry to here about this. I hope we can get things done and fixed now.

[crazydima]

Stephan,

It was a good time but there were some problems.

Keep your eyes open for more information.

Sincerely,

Dima

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

This is a post by one of the Lancers which was originally posted on the WWII Forum but it was deleted. The Lancer re-posted on the Mid-west Re-enactors board a day or two later.

Below it is my post addressing the items relating to the berm incident.

Polish 12Th Lancers: Enough Lies and Myths!
« Thread Started on 10/17/06 at 13:02 »

I am really fed up with bunch of lies, rumors and gossips that are written about our unit. They started again with the accident that took place at HRS National at Joliet.
Soon, we will be blamed for a bad weather over the event site, tectonic moves and soon, will help of all knowing Sean and Dima, volcanic activity. With almost 10 years of reenacting, hundreds of battles fought, and a recent Lowell violation (unsafe Jeep driving), I really wish any Unit to have a record like that.
Besides reenacting we organize banquets and anniversaries for our veterans. We send money to the most needed veterans trapped in the states of former Soviet Union, we go to the local schools to teach kids WWII history, we provide honorary guards at national holidays, we, as a unit went to Italy, England and Poland to pay our respect at cemeteries, to visit museums. We helped published veterans memories, and the list goes on. For all that Polish Government presented our unit and a CO with a highest national decoration.
All that against countless rumors, gossips and lies.

Just stay with me and read on.

Here is what a fellow reenactor writes and if I do not respond now it might all become true…

Written by “FETUS” (Sean):
At each and every event in the last year or so, they (as a unit) have done something horribly unsafe. Be it causing injuries by just running onto the smaller scripted battles at Rockford this year, to jumping out of their running jeep and using it as cover in Lowell, to laying down in the running jeep and shooting from the sides on an open battle field, to the nonsense already covered at Joliet this year, they should NOT be allowed to attend anything further. How many times did they sneak on to the Rensselaer grounds as a unit and not pay, be inspected for safety/authenticity or the like? Need anyone talk about the 'live ammo' issue at the Polish Uprising event they hosted? The handing out of MACHINE GUNS to kids there and at Lowell? Mind you, the above are just incidents I have seen with my own eyes (minus the Polish Uprising incident, that was relayed to me)--I'm sure there are other incidents as well. How many times does someone have to complain formally, be it verbally or in a written form?
If I did anything like the things listed above, I'd be in jail.

Accident.
To clarify all “I heard” and “someone told me” versions of the accident itself: A jeep with a driver and 3 reenactors was following American half track about 15-20 feet behind looking for a good place to cross a small river. Both vehicles were traveling at a small angle as they slowly approached the river. Both of them stopped for a second. When the Jeep started to move again (speed:3-5 mph) it slid about a foot and started to roll over to the driver’s side. All 4 passengers were thrown out and the Jeep, after landing again on all 4 wheels continued to slowly approach the river.
One of the thrown-off passengers got up and turned the engine off. 3 people were taken to the hospital; only 2 were admitted and released about 3 hours later.

Property damage
There was no property damage other than to our Jeep – but someone already states that we caused other property damage. That is a lie. Ask anyone who was there.

Driving up the berm
First of all, it took place before dusk. Yes, 3-4 attempts were made to get the Jeep on top of the berm that looked like a small hill. As it rolled back it was going at a speed of walking men. At no point was it dangerous, many reenactors were with us, all of them cheering as the Jeep was slowly going uphill. After few minutes we all retreated to our tent. Funny, is it a 30 or 60 foot berm? In a year it will be 300 or even 600 feet.!

“causing injuries by just running onto the smaller scripted battles at Rockford this year”
What nonsense! We attended all 3 battles, and two skirmishes in the town. No one was injured or hurt (except me, kicked by a fellow British reenactor while “playing dead”) – but since we love the hobby – we shook hands instead of filing a formal complain.

“Jumping out of their running jeep and using it as cover in Lowell”
Yes – one of us did it last Lowell ONCE and we are banned from Lowell for a year. It was not an HRS decision but a decision made by Lowell Park.

“How many times did they sneak on to the Rensselaer grounds as a unit and not pay”
Never – we were at Rensselear twice, both times all fees were paid. Ask the site owner or an event coordinator. Besides, do you really think that we are that cheap?
At more than 20 events we fed fellow reenactors, provided plastic bowls and even napkins for those who forgot their mess kits - do you know how many times we had to pay for all that ourselves? EVERY SINGLE TIME! and you really think we want to
save pathetic few bucks on the registration fees? Think again.

“Need anyone talk about the 'live ammo' issue at the Polish Uprising event they hosted?”
Oh boy, how to answer this LIE?
With hundreds of reenactors witnessing the best close combat event ever,
as our witnesses - I urge you to apologize! This is the worst defamation I’ve ever heard. 200 pyro charges, exploding 3 stories (yes!) buildings that we BUILT,
Yorkville building inspectors and Yorkville Police present at the event, $30,000 in building materials – and you thing we would risk all that for even 1 live bullet?
Think again.
But again, as you said yourself, you were not there.
Ah, yes, 1 injury, a German grenadier steps into a trench before firing even 1 shot.
Sprained ankle.
But you were reading the works of Marks and Engels and missed that all. I feel sorry for you for not being there.

“The handing out of MACHINE GUNS to kids there and at Lowell?”
Machine guns?? We have a few semi-automatic guns (Sten II and III, Bren and MG 34 semiautomatic – all legally bought and transferred with paperwork available to anyone who wants to see it) that we handed to our unit members. We also rented a few fully automatic guns from a class III dealer that we invited to the event.
At Yorkville we had Polish Boy Scouts that we have invited to participate in the event
(historically true). The oldest (platoon leaders – had to be 16 years old) had mock-up Molotov thingytails, the rest had no guns, pistols, mortars, knives.
Oops, but I forgot – Sean was not there to see it...

“If I did anything like the things listed above, I'd be in jail”
Good idea! I have talked to our attorney at law (we are registered as a non-for-profit organization and we have one) and statements like yours in a PUBLIC FORUM are damaging. It is a hard to win case, but we could drag you to court so often that you will no longer have time for that beautiful hobby. What a nice thought...

Andrew Lisowski
WWII Polish Historical Association
12th Podolian Lancers - reenacted

Mr. Lisowski,

I am so glad you decided to post on this forum. This will give folks a good chance to read your statements and fully digest them. Thank you for doing this for all of us.

This gives me a chance to address some of your statements regarding incidents at the JTA this past weekend. I don't have time to hit all of them. This will be addressed in detail as part of the complaint I am filing with the HRS BOD and S & A committee.

My focus will be on the incidents pertaining the jeeps driving up and down the berm on the evening of 10/13/06 since it put my men and equipment in harms way.

You wrote and I quote:
[glow=red,2,300] Driving up the berm
"First of all, it took place before dusk. Yes, 3-4 attempts were made to get the Jeep on top of the berm that looked like a small hill. As it rolled back it was going at a speed of walking men. At no point was it dangerous, many reenactors were with us, all of them cheering as the Jeep was slowly going uphill. After few minutes we all retreated to our tent. Funny, is it a 30 or 60 foot berm? In a year it will be 300 or even 600 feet.!" [/glow]

Let's address this statement a piece at a time.
[glow=red,2,300]"First of all, it took place before dusk"[/glow]

That is false! I was in camp until 7:55 PM on that Friday evening at which time I was given a ride in a POV to the 8:00 PM officers meeting inside of the firing range are which was on the other side of the berm your camp and ours. No jeeps were on the berm prior to my departure

At 8:48 PM I received a call on my cell phone from one of my riflemen back in the camp informing me that jeeps were driving up and down the berm. I am positive of the time because the phone calls are logged on my phone and show time, date etc. This will be entered in as evidence in my complaint. He told me that the jeeps were dangerously close to our tents in which were my men. Jon Stevens was within 3 feet of me so I told him about the issue and he immediately left headed to the disturbance.

Now folks let's take a page out of history and learn from the Farmers Almanac case involving Abe Lincoln defending Duff Armstrong shall we. According to astronomical data we know the following facts for the Joliet area on the night of 10/13/2006:

Sunset was: 6:16pm
Civil Twilight was: 6:43pm
Nautical twilight was: 7:15pm
Astronomical Twilight was: 7:48pm

So what do those terms mean? Well lets read the definitions below:

Civil twilight is defined when the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon. This is the limit at which twilight illumination is sufficient, under good weather conditions, for terrestrial objects to be clearly distinguished; at the beginning of morning civil twilight, or end of evening civil twilight, the horizon is clearly defined and the brightest stars are visible under good atmospheric conditions in the absence of moonlight or other illumination. In the morning before the beginning of civil twilight and in the evening after the end of civil twilight, artificial illumination is normally required to carry on ordinary outdoor activities.

Nautical twilight is defined when the sun is 12 degrees below the horizon. At the beginning or end of nautical twilight, under good atmospheric conditions and in the absence of other illumination, general outlines of ground objects may be distinguishable, but detailed outdoor operations are not possible, and the horizon is indistinct.

Astronomical Twilight
Astronomical twilight is defined when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon. Before the beginning of astronomical twilight in the morning and after the end of astronomical twilight in the evening the sun does not contribute to sky illumination; for a considerable interval after the beginning of morning twilight and before the end of evening twilight, sky illumination is so faint that it is practically imperceptible.

So what does this mean? Well to put it in easy to understand terms....It was dark before I left for the 8:00 meeting. So much for the "Before dusk" excuse.

Now let us address the next part:
[glow=red,2,300]"Yes, 3-4 attempts were made to get the Jeep on top of the berm that looked like a small hill."[/glow]

According to Jon Stevens he was told by one of the Lancers that they only made 5 trips up the hill. Hmmmmm. Maybe you folks should get your stories straight. The witnesses I have spoken to have stated that the number of attempts up the hill was greater than five and involved two jeeps. The photos I have of the berm seem to show that many attempts were made up the berm. Those photos will also be included in my complaint to the Safety committee HRS BOD.

Next item:
[glow=red,2,300]"As it rolled back it was going at a speed of walking men. At no point was it dangerous......"[/glow]

Really? And How exactly do 'you" determine the level of danger? How much does a jeep weigh? What around 1,200 pounds? Speed is not important when mass is involved. Jeep vs man at walking speed. I wonder what the results would be? How fast was the jeep traveling when it flipped on Saturday?

Take a look at these photos which will also be part of my complaint:

i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/crazydima/tent_2.jpg

i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/crazydima/tent_1.jpg

i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/crazydima/tent_3.jpg

i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/crazydima/IMG_3928.jpg


Next Item:
[glow=red,2,300]"many reenactors were with us, all of them cheering as the Jeep was slowly going uphill."[/glow]

Well then you should be able then to find plenty of witnesses to back up your story then shouldn't you. I look forward to seeing all of those statements.

Last but not least:
[glow=red,2,300]"Funny, is it a 30 or 60 foot berm? In a year it will be 300 or even 600 feet.!"[/glow]

My estimate is that there is approximately a 30' vertical rise in height of the berm. I am not sure as to the slope but it was steep. I will confirm that one way or another. To be honest though anyone who knows anything about jeeps knows that it takes far less than a 30 ' steep berm to cause a jeep to lose control.

The bottom line is that you have admitted here on this forum that at least one jeep made multiple attempts to go up and down the berm when no vehicles should have been doing it to begin with.

You placed the safety of my men at risk for what? A joy ride?

Some people have some answering to do and I look forward to those answers!

Sincerely,

Dima
(just the facts)

Here was his Reply

Reply #4 on 10/17/06 at 18:48

Mr. Dimitri Sergeiovich Lenveber,
Yes, thank you - I have finally landed here!
I am really impressed with the astronomical data, however, to be honest, I skipped through most of as I never took interest in heavenly bodies (except Russian Medic women, that is) and went to medical school instead.
Pictures look great, HRS can now decide whether it was a safety violation or not.
Small hill with enough place to brake, turn around and park the Jeeps.
BTW, was there a sign or any other warning not to drive it up? No. In the same fashion German and American trucks, halftracks and Jeeps would disappear the next day in the thickness of the fog and tall grass.
But more importantly: what has happened with live ammo accusation? This is dangerous, unlike driving the Jeep up the hill. Speaking of which, as someone stated in the main Joliet topic: some people are not cut out to reenact, if so, they can always reverse to collecting stamps. Now – that was a joke!
What amazes me the most is the way you guys reacted, if you were so scared, so paralyzed by fear, so shocked – how come no one just talked to us? Yell or run?
It was only few feet from us as you say yourself.

Since you are a definition aficionado, I, too, decided to look up a term for you:
“Joyride” - a crime involving stealing a car and driving it dangerously at high speed.

Andrew Lisowski
WWII Polish Army Historical Association
12th Podolian Lancers – reenacted

This was my response:

Reply #6 on 10/17/06 at 20:15

Mr. Lisowski,

I am glad you were impressed but I am not surprised that the information was lost on you. I think everyone else got the point and that was my goal.

Hmmmm. No signs eh? A rather poor excuse. About as good as the "before Dusk" statement.

As stated in my previous posting my complaint deals with your berm driving and not the ammo accusations. You will have to take that up with someone else.

As for threat assessment of a live ammo accusation vs reckless jeeps. I would say I would have to give a higher threat assessment to the jeeps since 4 people were sent to the hospital due to a jeep and nobody was hurt by any accusation.

You are correct that some folks are not cut out for re-enacting. After 23 years of re-enacting I have a pretty good idea of who those people are.

As for the reaction of my men. I guess you could say that they were in shock to see such foolish and dangerous activity playing out before their eyes. What do you say to people with such reckless disregard for safety?

I can assure you that in the future we will maintain a much greater distance between our camps. However, it must be noted that we were set up on that site before you.

My use for the term "joy ride" is far less sinister than your attempt to spin it. Some words can and do have more than one meaning. I used it in the context of "an automobile ride just for pleasure." If you took it as an accusation of theft then you were sadly mistaken.

I have enjoyed our little exchange.

Thank you for your time and attention on this matter.

Sincerely,

Dima


As you can see this matter troubles me very much and the statements by the Lancers indicate that there is little hope of them changing their behavior. This I fear will result in more people being injured and more property being damaged.

I hope I am wrong.

Sincerely,

Dima

[crazydima]

Sasha,

So far not a peep.

However, I operate on the 30 day rule. This usually gives plenty of time for folks to show whether or not anything is going to happen.

So this means that in just a few days I will be inquiring as to the status of the investigation.

After all we wouldn't want to second guess anybody now would we.

We shall see.

Sincerely,

Dima

[tarawajon]

Started.

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

Here is the latest news. Those who are concerned with the Poles and the safety issue need to take the time to call in to monitor what takes place.

Sincerely,

Dima

WWII HRS Board of Directors
Meeting agenda for Thursday, Nov. 16
Teleconference meeting is set for 7 p.m.



This is the agenda for the next HRS Board of Directors meeting set to begin at 7 p.m. Thursday, Nov. 16. Its a public teleconference meeting so any one is welcome to dial in. To call in dial 1-888-330-9939 and the passcode is 319389#.



1. Approval of September minutes

2. Discussion of safety issues raised at HRS National regarding the 12th Polish Lancers.
A. discussion of incidents and investigation
B. Board action

3. Discussion regarding Marilyn Fornell letter

4. Status of HRS By-Law Committee (Greg Lee)

5. Status on HRS audit (Elliot James)

6. Status of HRS finances (Dave Fornell)
A. Explain handover of accounts to incoming treasurer

7. Status of membership (Jon Stevens)

8. Status of any new unit charters (Greg Lee)

9. Any other old business

10 Hand over of some board positions to newly elected board members.

11. New business

12. Public comments

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

Well I am finally caught up on some of the back log and I thought I would bring you up to speed on what happened at the Sunday evening BOD meeting.

There were 4 BOD members(Greg Lee, Elliot James, Brian Ogstad, Dave Jameson) present at first and two spectators. Later in the meeting a 5th BOD member(Jon Stevens)made it. The two spectators were Tim Scherrer and myself. I am not aware of anyone else being on the teleconference.

The meeting was a mixture of good and very good news. None of it would be what I would consider bad news.

The very good news is that The BOD voted to send apologies to both Tim and Randy for the terrible treatment they received from the April BOD. The BOD will clear their records of what the April BOD did to them. It is good to see some of the wrongs being corrected.

My thanks to the BOD for taking this action.

The audit will proceed so that we can see what happened with the book keeping and start with a clean slate.

The silly letter of complaint from Marilyn Fornell regarding the
supposed theft of a hat from her by Stephie was sent back to Marilyn.

The Lancer issue was further addressed at this meeting. During the course of discussion it was discovered that nobody could tell me the names of the drivers supposedly involved in the berm incident or the Lowell incident. All we knew was that the first name of the confessed berm driver was Andy and that led to some confusion. I thought it was Andy Lisowski but I was wrong.

I want to thank Elliot James (HRS PRES.) for standing up for us by
stating that he thought that the Russians took the necessary steps and action to get the Poles to stop the berm driving.

There was lengthy discussion of the topic and I was asked if I was happy and I said that yes this was probably it but I still felt it
was not harsh enough but I would respect what the BOD decided.

In a nutshell the following action was taken. My apologies if I
missed any of the finer details. The meeting minutes from the BOD
will clarify any mistakes on my part.

1. The Lancers need to provide the full names of the two drivers
from the Joliet Berm incident as well as the full name of the driver
who was supposedly kicked out for the safety violation at Lowell
back in May of this year. These name need to be provided by January 1st or their charter is revoked.

2. The Lancers will be banned from utilizing their jeeps in any
activities(HRS or otherwise) for the 2007 season.

3. The drivers involved in the berm incident will be suspended.

Better than nothing but not exactly what I would call punishment to fit the infraction.

Additionally, I must apologize to Andy Lisowski for mistakenly
identifying him as one of the drivers of the Berm incident. It was
another Andy who was the confessed driver. The driver's full name was finally supplied to me late this past Sunday night after the meeting was over. I will dig through and find the full named and post it this evening since that information is on my other computer at home. Again my apologies for the misidentification.

We will see what happens.

Again my thanks to all for you for your time and effort on this
matter and Steve R., I am so sorry that your reputation has been
tarnished. It isn't right.

Sincerely,

Dima

Rob

Robert Leinweber
Independent Company Sharpshooters (1861-1865)
Batallon de Cazadores No. 25 (1895 - 1898)
416th Rifle Regiment RKKA (1939 - 1945)
US Cav Recon Scout (1941 - 1945)

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

As I stated in an earlier message I had misidentified the first(and
currently only identified)driver of the berm incident.

His name as provided by the Lancers to Greg Lee who provided it to the rest of us on Sunday night 12/10/06 at 9:55 PM is Andy
Jastrzebski. The Lancers did not send it to Greg until 9:41 PM of
that same evening which I believe is after the BOD meeting had
ended. Interestingly though the time and date stamp of Greg's email to the Lancers requesting the name is missing so I do not know when the request was made.

Again my apologies to Andy Lisowski for incorrectly identifying him
as the driver.

Now the Lancers only need to provide the two remaining names of drivers by January 1st. This should be relatively easy to do with 19 days left until the deadline.

One driver is part of the Berm incident at joliet and the other is
the driver who was supposedly kicked out earlier in the year as a
result of abandoning a moving jeep at the Lowell event.

Time waits for no man.

Sincerely,

Dima

Robert Leinweber
Independent Company Sharpshooters (1861-1865)
Batallon de Cazadores No. 25 (1895 - 1898)
416th Rifle Regiment RKKA (1939 - 1945)
US Cav Recon Scout (1941 - 1945)