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Post by crazydima on Jun 22, 2006 14:03:50 GMT -5
Tovarischi,
Well after waiting for over 60 days the meeting minutes for the two ill fated April HRS meetings were made available by the newly appointed VP of HRS. My thanks to Greg for making this information available to folks.
The question has to be asked, "Why did it take 60+days to make it available?" Some folks refer to this as the "Slow Leak" approach. A little detail to look for is the date on which the minutes were submitted and whom submitted them. Also note remarks relating to "reading of the minutes." This will be covered in the analysis portion.
I has asked about if this information is to be posted in the upcoming "EDGE" and nobody has responded yet. My fear is that it will not and folks will not have this information readily accessible. So as a service to the folks I will post it here as time allows. Knowledge is power. Besides, I am doing my best to avoid feeling like a stooge. Not!
Due to the size of the minutes(character number) the minutes will be broken down into parts so it can be posted on this forum.
Following the posting of the minutes there will be an analysis of the information contained in the minutes so some discussion can take place to help folks understand exactly what took place and to help explain why some folks are very disappointed in the whole matter.
No doubt folks will step up and use some of the buzz words and catch phrases such as "we need to move on", "this is not productive", "boring", "repetitive", etc.
I will join in this club and express the need for "closure" and that can be achieved through analysis and discussion of the minutes. We cannot know where we are going until we know where we have been. Hey, I like these cliches.
Actually this whole mess involves a neat little thing called accountability. Actions have consequences and thus far I have not seen anyone being held accountable for their actions. well maybe one fellow but that became a legal matter and interestingly that is also tucked into the minutes. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
So remember folks, keep it civil and keep on keeping on.
Thank you for your time and attention on this matter.
Sincerely,
Dima
(the really really disappointed one)
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Post by ewj on Jun 23, 2006 10:07:18 GMT -5
Without cliches - these issue is going to be discussed, so we might as well do it here as anywhere.
I haven't talked to Mike Bollow yet about the minutes appearing in "The Edge", although I do talk to him regularly on other matters. The biggest problem is the length of the document. We have about 8 pages for articles and about double that in minutes. Making "The Edge" longer will increase the costs.
Granted the overwhelmingly negative reaction Mike Bollow received to the last set of minutes that dominated "The Edge" I'm not sure it's the answer.
Speaking purely in my personal capacity, and not as a member of the board, if the documents were photocopied and distributed as an additional communication that could drastically reduce cost to the HRS.
The other problem is like all minutes they seem to me to be vague especially because a lot of the supporting documentation that led the decisions being made are not there.
Even if disributed remeber 90% of the membership is not a concerned about this as some of the 416th appear to be.
My fear here is that various people have already made up there minds that the rump of the BoD that made the decisions on Randy and Tim where wrong and that nothing is going to change their mines. The accusation has been made that the BoD was "Judge, jury and executioner" - but here I feel we may have, in the words of Lewis Carrol in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland "No!No!, Sentence first - verdict afterwards". In other words that the BoD has already been judged and found wanting. Please prove me wrong.
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Post by Konstantin on Jun 23, 2006 11:10:41 GMT -5
Granted the overwhelmingly negative reaction Mike Bollow received to the last set of minutes that dominated "The Edge" I'm not sure it's the answer. Speaking purely in my personal capacity, and not as a member of the board, if the documents were photocopied and distributed as an additional communication that could drastically reduce cost to the HRS. The other problem is like all minutes they seem to me to be vague especially because a lot of the supporting documentation that led the decisions being made are not there. Even if disributed remeber 90% of the membership is not a concerned about this as some of the 416th appear to be. Elliott, It is absolutely critical that these minutes get out to every paid member of the HRS. COMPLETELY UNEDITTED!Whether it is in the Edge or a separate special mailing. Make the motion that the club pay for a special mailing. We have the cash, oddles of it. Do not sit here and say that 90% of the membership are not concerned, thus we don't need to send it. That is a complete shaft to the 10% that do care. And they will be upset, whether as vocal as the 416th or not, I do not know. Do not be the judge of that. Send them out and let that 90% decide for themselves whether they care or not. It's when we start making decisions for others that we get into trouble. Oh and I assure everyone. It's more than the 416th that is upset about what went down. Some are less vocal or do not have an online presense. They know and they ain't happy as we say down south. The BOD's decisions, actions and the next elections are critical over the coming months. The HRS is on the verge of fracturing, I know this for FACT. -dave 416th |
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Post by ewj on Jun 23, 2006 15:17:46 GMT -5
If you noticed I did say that I favored sending the minutes out as a separate mailing and let the people judge.
I will raise this issue with my fellow directors. In deference to the respect I have for both the integrity and persons of Dave, Sasha and Dima, I promise to do my damnest to get it out to the membership.
My problem is that here is the Twin Cities this is a complete non-issue. I've been to regular monthly meetings of the groups up here at Ft Snelling - of the 40 odd people I've talked to, over the past 2 months, no one seemed to care. Now I'll not bore you the concepts of sampling and comfort levels, but here in the Twin Cities I was asked only two questions. "Do we still have the Insurance?" and "Will any events be canceled because of this?" When told "No". All I got was "So what's the problem then?" Based on that there is a pool of apathetic people.
Within my own unit the news of Randy's departure was greeted with a metaphoric chorus of people singing "Doing, Dong the Witch is Dead" - no I didn't join in, I had insufficient facts and had never encountered Randy so I refrained from commenting.
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Post by crazydima on Jun 23, 2006 16:25:13 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]Tovarischi,
I will address this on a point by point basis.[/glow]
“Without cliches - these issue is going to be discussed, so we might as well do it here as anywhere.”
[glow=red,2,300]There really is no other internet forum to discuss this topic. The other forums out there either won’t allow any mention of such topics or censor it so heavily that it would be a waste of time. In my opinion thread locking and thread deletions are not productive. So it looks like it is here or nowhere.[/glow]
“I haven't talked to Mike Bollow yet about the minutes appearing in "The Edge", although I do talk to him regularly on other matters. The biggest problem is the length of the document. We have about 8 pages for articles and about double that in minutes. Making "The Edge" longer will increase the costs.”
[glow=red,2,300]The minutes in question could easily be (or could have been) placed in the “Edge” in a series of installments. Thus not requiring any increase in costs. Fairly simple solution.[/glow]
“Granted the overwhelmingly negative reaction Mike Bollow received to the last set of minutes that dominated "The Edge" I'm not sure it's the answer.”
[glow=red,2,300]To be perfectly honest I am suspect of the assertion that there was an “overwhelmingly negative reaction.” At best I the assertion is anecdotal. Were all of the members of HRS polled on this matter? My guess is they were not. Additionally, the tone and format of that particular issue of the newsletter appeared to be more of a temper tantrum and gave the appearance of a deliberate effort to evoke a negative reaction to the publishing of minutes in the “Edge.” This is not just an observation on my part but also based on similar comments from other members.[/glow]
“Speaking purely in my personal capacity, and not as a member of the board, if the documents were photocopied and distributed as an additional communication that could drastically reduce cost to the HRS."
[glow=red,2,300]Such an option appears to be feasible but unnecessary if the minutes were placed as installments in the “Edge.” Why incur additional costs when it is not necessary.[/glow]
“The other problem is like all minutes they seem to me to be vague especially because a lot of the supporting documentation that led the decisions being made are not there.”
[glow=red,2,300]You would think that a meeting which dealt with such an important and delicate matters would have better minutes kept. Of course the submittal date for the April 19th meeting minutes as well as the person who submitted them is a bit confusing but that will be addressed in the analysis part of this thread. I as well as others would love to see this “supporting documentation.” It was over 60 days since those decisions were made and just now the minutes become available. How long before we can expect to see “supporting documentation?” I am highly suspect of the existence of such documents due to past experience with lack of disclosure of the minutes. However, I look forward to the disclosure of such evidence at some point in the future.[/glow]
“Even if disributed remeber 90% of the membership is not a concerned about this as some of the 416th appear to be.”
[glow=red,2,300]I am also suspect of the assertion that 90% of the membership is not as concerned about this as the 416th. Was a survey was taken of the entire membership to reach this number? Once again my guess is that the answer is no. I freely admit that my information is anecdotal and I always have made that clear. However, since some folks want to play the numbers game I will state that just based upon the contact I have had with HRS members, there is far more than 10% of the membership who are just as concerned about this as the 416th. This is based upon a rough number of 800 members of HRS. Once again this is anecdotal evidence and I welcome a more scientific resolution to this question. As a side note this is far bigger than just a 416th thing but I appreciate the unit plug.[/glow]
“My fear here is that various people have already made up there minds that the rump of the BoD that made the decisions on Randy and Tim where wrong and that nothing is going to change their mines. The accusation has been made that the BoD was "Judge, jury and executioner" - but here I feel we may have, in the words of Lewis Carrol in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland "No!No!, Sentence first - verdict afterwards". In other words that the BoD has already been judged and found wanting. Please prove me wrong.”
[glow=red,2,300]As I have stated numerous times I pride myself on having the necessary information before I determine my position on any particular matter. In this case I have been left to guess for over 60 days without full (ah heck any) disclosure from the BOD of April as to what officially took place in those two ill fated meetings. I was told repeatedly that I was only getting one side of the story. I was also repeatedly told that the facts will come out and the rest of the story will be told. I will let you folks in on a little secret. I really didn’t get any side of the story until just recently long after the meetings took place. So the actions and lack of action by the BOD of April is primarily to blame for my position and my displeasure with them not the paranoia of tales from the dark side.[/glow]
[glow=red,2,300]It is a fact that the BOD of April was indeed the “Judge, Jury and executioner.” Look at the minutes. They show who made the motions, seconded them and the vote tally, “unanimous.” But that is also going to be addressed in the analysis portion of this thread. The board had other options available to them but they chose to press ahead without regard for the welfare of the Society or its members. I do not have to prove anything to you. I have to prove to myself that I have the strength to follow the bearing of my moral compass even if it takes me through some stormy seas. So many others have wandered of course. If anything I would say that the BOD of April needs to prove me wrong as to my position on what took place on April 19th and 20th of 2006.[/glow]
“Within my own unit the news of Randy's departure was greeted with a metaphoric chorus of people singing "Doing, Dong the Witch is Dead" - no I didn't join in, I had insufficient facts and had never encountered Randy so I refrained from commenting.”
[glow=red,2,300]Exactly what relevance this has on the subject I am not sure but once it is posted it’s posted.
On with the show.
Sincerely,
Dima
the very deeply disappointed one[/glow]
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35divmp
Junior Sergeant
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Posts: 60
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Post by 35divmp on Jun 23, 2006 18:22:31 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]The minutes in question could easily be (or could have been) placed in the “Edge” in a series of installments. Thus not requiring any increase in costs. Fairly simple solution.[/glow] [glow=red,2,300]Such an option appears to be feasible but unnecessary if the minutes were placed as installments in the “Edge.” Why incur additional costs when it is not necessary.[/glow] Dima: As a non-HRS member I feel I can be a "dis-interested" observer of this topic. I saw what happened in 1987 to the HRS when people did things they thought was so correct, but turned out so wrong. These actions so long ago caused the birth of the TSG. The actions of the last HRS BoD are repeating what the 1987 BoD did. I only hope that the "interm" officers can keep the HRS ship afloat. It will be a thankless job. Anyway, the HRS could very easily put the HRS BoD (and National Meeting) minutes on the website in a section that could only be "unlocked" by a code number given to each HRS member when he/she joins. That would cut down on printing and shipping costs on the minutes. There could be a blurb in each issue of the Edge to remind people. If a member is uncaring what the BoD does, then he/she gets what they deserve. Jay |
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Post by wagner on Jun 27, 2006 17:57:11 GMT -5
When I reread the minutes I noticed a very interesting thing. Marilyn was being impeached, by the way means to charge with wrong doing and not to kick out, but she voted on her own impeachment with a not guilty or rejection of the charges vote. Can someone on the BOD or anywhere explain to me how that is not a Conflict of interest? It is not a conflict of intrest in the old BOD because it was not strictly laid out in the by-laws. This line of thought applies to alot of the answers offered by MF for her impeachment charges. Travis |
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