|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Jul 3, 2009 11:56:33 GMT -5
Komrades, Please pardon the cross-posting, but I wanted to cover as much ground as possible. When I got into doing RKKA last year, I was told that plasch-palatkas with brass grommets were a no-no, leather grommets were good. No problem, made sense. Now, please read the thread on the forum at the link below: (BTW, if you are not a member of this forum, or read it, you are really missing out. There are some great, knowledgeable, and advanced collectors of RKKA items from the UK, Europe, etc. on there. I have learned a tremendous amount since haunting this place.) warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-accessories-personal-items/my-plash-palatka-8194/Now, according to these folks, even leather grommets alone are post war, and that sewn grommets alone (like the ones we remember on correct CW shelter halves) are much more common, with the sewn and leather-grommeted plasches coming in at second place. Apparently, and I could be reading this wrong, our having just leather ones is just as farby as having the brass grommets. Perhaps the leather grommet vs. brass grommet is an RKKA “reenactorism”? Maybe we’ve been wrong all along? What I am wondering now, and I had thoughts along this line earlier, would it be possible to take a plasch that has the brass grommets, remove them, and then “fix” the resultant hole by stitching it as you would a “sewn grommet” ala’ a Federal issue shelter half? Looking at documented original items can yield a bounty of information, and also dispel “reenactorisms”. Thoughts? Yuri Stakhanov 19 GMB |
|
|
|
Post by vsahdneek on Jul 3, 2009 23:15:58 GMT -5
Hail Frontovik!
You may be on to something... it is hard to say... the GPW was such a large conflict with so many different sources of manufacture and such large quantities, it seems that to make any blanket statements about such an article of military manufacture would be questionable in my book. I think you have to look at it in one of two ways, are you trying to create a museum display or are you trying to be a reenactor for fun and film?
The museum standards are one realm that of course does require more intense and reliable research, but what you wear in the field as a reenactor in my book should NOT be museum quality relics... save those for displays, museums, and collections. How much do you want to spend? how much time do you want to use sewing grommet holes? I think the leather reinforced plasches are a reasonable alternative to late nights sewing and brass grommeted ones... at least for our purposes in reenacting. Unless you are buying and selling relics for a living or running a museum, realize and live with the fact we are reenactors who do an impression... excessive nitpicking just turns a person into the dreaded 'stitch commisar' and no one's friend.
But I do applaud your skills as a researcher! that is always a useful skill to develope!
There is this to consider about converting your old relic... if it has all leather... then that makes it, in your words, a post war midification... whose to say you should convert that and destroy the unique value it has as an historical conversion? then how does that serve history?
One should always weigh the cost of conversion versus the cost of destroying an items inherant uniqueness.... what if someday we all decided to reenact postwar 'revolt in Hungary' when the all leather ones were in use? then what? cut out the stitches and sew the leather ones back? sounds silly doesn't it ? I think this is where such attention to detail for reenactor purposes is useful in so far as research is concerned, but not so important for what we actually take to the field, say, for a tactical.
I would leave it alone. Do we all really want to start a big hub hub with all the stitch commissars that will demand we all cut off the leather tabs and spend hours sewing in the other reenforcements, that might be more accurate, but WILL make the things less sturdy?
I think not... so, it may be a bit of a reenactorism to use the leather ones, but think of it as a reasonable alternative to an item that was otherwise fragile, and the leather versions are less farbe than the brass ones. Personally, it is my guess that perhaps whether they had leather grommets of not depended on the availablitity of leather at the time the plashe was made, and that situation varied from time to time and place to place throughout the whole period of the pre GPW period to the post war period.
Just my 2 kopeks worth,
Vlad
|
|
|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Jul 4, 2009 18:31:08 GMT -5
Vlad, "You may be on to something... it is hard to say... the GPW was such a large conflict with so many different sources of manufacture and such large quantities, it seems that to make any blanket statements about such an article of military manufacture would be questionable in my book." Indeed, one plasch does not several hundred million make. However, I was unaware of this, and thought others might be as well. It was my hope to spark conversation, in particular what others had observed on original, war-time manufactured plasches. An examination of several is in order. However, if several collectors tell me that the all the originals in their collections were either made with sewn grommets, or a combination of sewn and leather grommets, and they can back it up with photos, etc. then I think we have a pretty good sample to start with. Do you have, or do you know of war-time manufactured plasches with brass grommets? Leather grommets only? If so, please add it to this conversation. I posted it as a vehicle to promote the conversation, not to point fingers and say I or someone else had a better impression than another.  Another primay intention was that it might be possible to take a post-war plasch, such as one with brass grommets, which is considered (to the best of my knowledge and what I've been told) unacceptable at most events, and convert it to something that is more acceptable, or more correct. As to sewn grommets being less sturdy, I beg to differ. I used a shelter half with sewn grommets, as did my friends, for many years. At not time did I find the sewn grommet to be less sturdy. You bring up valid points, and my intention was not to give STAVKA-STITCH more ammunition. However, if we are unwilling to strive for authenticity in our impressions, why have the board? Granted, from what I have seen in person and in event photos, and what I have heard, RKKA reenacting has authenticity issues much greater than how one's plasch is "grommeted". However, if one of us finds out that what we are doing might be incorrect, do we not owe it to each other to point out the shortcoming so that those who want to do it right, can do so? Am I going to alter my plasch that has leather grommets anytime soon? Probably not, although I might once I can find out more on the subject. What if some fellow frontoviks out there have some plasches that have brass grommets, and have been catching heck from STAVKA-STITCH? I thought in posting this I might provide information for those that do strive for greater authenticity in their impressions. I hate to say it, but much of what you said sounds just like what friends of mine told me it was like when CW reenactors started showing up to events in shelter halves in the late 70's. I remember being told that we were creating a big hub-bub back in the early/mid-80's when we started doing our "campaigner" thing, and wearing documented uniforms, camping only with what we carried on our backs, and eating nothing but period rations. (Maybe THAT'S what is wrong with me!  ). They, and we, were shunned, called nasty names, and even banned from some events. Why is trying to improve your/my/our RKKA impression not fun or enjoyable? Sometimes the enjoyment (and the devil) is in the details. If people are happy just as they are, great! I am happy for them. However, for me and my house, I will always be trying to improve my impression, and push myself towards greater authenticity in my impression. I feel I owe that to my fellow hobbyists who are out in the woods with me, and I owe it to the soldiers I am trying to portray. FWIW, YMMV, Yuri |
|
|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Jul 4, 2009 19:25:08 GMT -5
Addendum: Someone recently turned me on to some plasches for around $10.00 ea. Chances are, they have brass grommets. Now, armed with the above information, would it not seem logical for a new recruit, especially in these financially strapped times, to spend $10.00 plus shipping for one of these, and devote some time to make it period-correct rather than try to find the leather grommet plasches (seems they are getting rarer) and spend $40-$50 or more?
Yuri
|
|
|
|
Post by vsahdneek on Jul 5, 2009 1:49:58 GMT -5
Yuri,
if you can get a pile of those for 10 $ a pop, get a mess, and I will be HAPPY to take a few off your hands! just email me the details, or if there is a website you can refer us too... at that price, it is worth the effort, esp for the new soldats...I understand your points, really, I do, so don't think I was trying to be the ultimate opinion on the plashe subject or anything... hey, if you like to sew and want to have one you think might be closer to your research data, have at it by all means!
My point was, that even if you run into a dozen soldats with sewn grommet holes, statistically, that still doesn't mean squat as to whether they ALL were that way... we are talking about MILLIONS of these things being made for the common soldat in the war...
A buddy of mine who is a vendor once said "an expert is someone who hasn't seen all the variations yet" so I would temper your zeal of wanting to get things right with the wisdom that regardless of what you think you know... there is always more to learn and more variations that might be uncovered by other researchers.
Ignore the Stavka-stitchers and do what you think is best for you and what you enjoy doing... what gives you a comfort zone. I would leave the leather one alone, but converting the brass ones sounds like a plan. I have a gut feeling that perhaps the brass ones were used by the Naval Infantry, but that is just a hunch based on my knowledge of things maritime... something about the Navies of the world and their love of brass fittings...
Anywho, by all means if you find out anything more on your quest to find the ultimate plashe history, post it here, plus anything you learn about any other piece of gear you have... that is what this forum is all about... posting your findings and sharing them with the rest of us.
? do you intend to sew grommets by hand or do you use a machine, and should one use any particular kind of thread? does it end up looking like the kind of stitching you use for button holes? send us a close up of one you have done if you would please.
Vlad
|
|
|
|
Post by dixieflyer on Jul 5, 2009 11:42:34 GMT -5
"if you can get a pile of those for 10 $ a pop, get a mess, and I will be HAPPY to take a few off your hands! just email me the details, or if there is a website you can refer us too... at that price, it is worth the effort, esp for the new soldats..."
I will. I haven't been in touch with them yet, and it may turn out to be too good to be true, but I will let everyone know.
"I understand your points, really, I do, so don't think I was trying to be the ultimate opinion on the plashe subject or anything... hey, if you like to sew and want to have one you think might be closer to your research data, have at it by all means!"
I re-wrote my response several times, and tried myself to not come off sounding like some kind of genitalia-head. I don't think I succeeded, so please don't think I was trying to come off as an expert.
"My point was, that even if you run into a dozen soldats with sewn grommet holes, statistically, that still doesn't mean squat as to whether they ALL were that way... we are talking about MILLIONS of these things being made for the common soldat in the war...
A buddy of mine who is a vendor once said "an expert is someone who hasn't seen all the variations yet" so I would temper your zeal of wanting to get things right with the wisdom that regardless of what you think you know... there is always more to learn and more variations that might be uncovered by other researchers."
In one sense I will agree with you on this, however, I can think of an instance where a dozen soldiers would be statistically significant. Lemme tell ya a story. Back in the early/mid 80’s when my pards decided to do the Western CS jean machine thing they started off with three original shell jackets. All three were documented to the “Orphan Brigade” of Kentucky. This is significant, since, by being from Kentucky, they were not subject to being supplied by their state, but had to draw uniform issues from the CS central government. All three jackets were documented to the same brigade, were (for all practical purposes alike) and from three different years: ’62, ’63, and ’64, just the years that the group wanted to portray. A quick glance at soldier’s journals, not only from that brigade, but the scant photographic evidence that was available, bore out these jackets as being what we would consider to be standard issue to CS troops in the Army of Tennessee from 1863-64. Now, was this the only jacket being worn? Certainly not! Other jackets were found, but in nowhere near the numbers that the others were found. For the purposes of this group this jacket became the standard to which all aspired. To be honest, they started a movement which is still going strong today in terms of authenticity, research, etc. Likewise a number of my friends in the Mudsills did the same research on Federal sack coats, and published an article on the same. They were able to look at seven sack coats held in the US Army collection at the US Army Quartermaster Museum at Ft. Lee. After this, they were able to not say so much what a sack coat should be, but they could definitely say what a proper sack coat was not, and the currently available repros did not reflect the reality of the originals. Further examination of originals both in period images and other originals held in museum collections only bore out their general conclusions. My point in all of this Vlad is that if I find a dozen plashes, to use your example, manufactured across the board from ’41-’45, then I think we have a good sample set to work from to say in general what a proper plasch is. If I were to use your and your friend’s logic, then I could conceivably show up at an event with pink plastic grommets, and claim it was a variation that had not been seen yet.
"Ignore the Stavka-stitchers and do what you think is best for you and what you enjoy doing... what gives you a comfort zone. I would leave the leather one alone, but converting the brass ones sounds like a plan. I have a gut feeling that perhaps the brass ones were used by the Naval Infantry, but that is just a hunch based on my knowledge of things maritime... something about the Navies of the world and their love of brass fittings..."
I am happy to ignore the Stavka-Stitichers except when they are acting like the south end of a north bound donkey. By slamming my son's impression like they did on the other forum, they have created a monster the likes of which they have never seen. I would venture to say that I have more historic research time both as an avocation and a vocation than that/those individual(s) did/does. They have brought forth something in me that has lain dormant for more than ten years. I will get them back with their own twisted logic, and the whole world will laugh at them when it happens, Bwahahahahahahaha! ;D
"Anywho, by all means if you find out anything more on your quest to find the ultimate plashe history, post it here, plus anything you learn about any other piece of gear you have... that is what this forum is all about... posting your findings and sharing them with the rest of us."
I will! Go explore that link I posted. There are some great posts by some pretty good collectors of both uniforms and field gear, etc. Quite a learning experience. I know I have a "mystery" mag pouch that no one seems to be able to tell me what it is. I'm going to post pics of it over there and see if they can "figger" it out.
"? do you intend to sew grommets by hand or do you use a machine, and should one use any particular kind of thread? does it end up looking like the kind of stitching you use for button holes? send us a close up of one you have done if you would please."
I will have to sew them by hand since the only sewing machine we have is broken, and I suspect that to do that you would need some kind of industrial machine or surger of which I do not have access. As I mentioned before, I did not post this in an attempt to say, "Hey! If you don't do it this way, you're a farb!" Nope, I was just trying to find out what everyone else knew about it, and to get some folks to look at things a little differently. One night not too long ago Dima and I had a conversation regarding how many things we get told as RKKA reenactors that have no basis in fact. We get told these things enough to the point that they become the standard, but no one, it seems, can point to the source. I had been told that leather grommets were war-time. Perhaps they are, but no one mentioned anything about sewn grommets, which I have seen on other items before WWII, and I wondered if perhaps sewn grommets ever occurred. Presto, there was that post, and I thought it interesting.
Yuri
|
|
|
|
Post by Kristen on Jun 4, 2021 6:05:24 GMT -5
about Bridal wedding dress for wedding
Howdy, i read your blog from time to time and i own a similar one and i was just
curious if you get a lot of spam feedback? If so how do you prevent it, any plugin or anything you can suggest?
I get so much lately it's driving me insane so any help is very much appreciated.
|
|
). They, and we, were shunned, called nasty names, and even banned from some events. Why is trying to improve your/my/our RKKA impression not fun or enjoyable? Sometimes the enjoyment (and the devil) is in the details.