Danzig Anatomical Medical Institute

[velodya]

While reading Antony Beevor's text "The Fall of Berlin" I was disgusted to learn that the Nazis had a secret program under way to murder Jews and RKKA POWS and use their corpses for soap and leather.

donkey nibbly bits good thing we won that war.

[dixieflyer]

And this is supposed to be better than Stalin?

Yuri

[velodya]

What do you mean by that?

[dixieflyer]

That when it comes to Hitler and the Nazis and Stalin and the Communists, there is very little difference.

Yuri

[velodya]

I disagree with that. In the first place you don't see Soviets, even the NKVD, massacring POWs and turning them into consumer goods. You might claim GULAG is the same, but it isn't. That sort of work isn't unheard of, and is nowhere near what Germany did. 60% of Soviet POWs were killed. 3.5 million men and women. 5 million German POWs were held. Only a maximum of 30% died, and thats the absolute worst case. Richard Overy's figure was only 14%.

Stalin and communism brought concrete social change and industrialized the Soviet Union. Hitler did nothing but misuse what existed in Germany and launched a racial war that killed millions and millions of innocent people. Stalin's purges were based off the perception of improving productivity or punishing treason, and in many cases they did. Hitler's massacres were based off of pseudo-scientific racial theory and dreams of expansionism for that purpose.

The two are fundamentally dissimilar.

[dixieflyer]

Stalin was a racist and anti-Semite as well. What about what he did to ethnic groups within the USSR during the war? Little different. While Imperial Russia was far behind the Western European powers, industrialization was already on the way. If anything, the Revolution of 1917 stifled, and very nearly killed it. All of the progress of which you speak was garnered with the slave labor of his own citizens, making him and the regime little better.

Yuri

[vsahdneek]

Sad to say you're all wet here, Komrades,

Stalin was not an anti-juden, he married or slept with lotsa juden womyn and had guys like Lorenti Beria (a juden) as a hatchetman head of the unified NKVD-GRU that was responsible for the worst of all genocides on the planet EVER with the exception of MAO's.

The soap and lampshades crap is just that, it was disinformation created and diseminated by Ilya Ehrenburg, Stalin's juden Goebbel's-like head of propaganda. No self respecting Aryan would consider washing himself with soap made from the juden!
They were considered unclean, esp by the SS who ran the camps
(in specific the Gestapo).

Stalinism brought nothing but hardship, terror, torture, starvation and death to the majority of the Eastern people's, period. Oh yes, they created during that time an immense military police state and built all sortsa heavy industry all over the place, but at a truly horrible price. If you want I can send you a short film called "The Soviet Pardise" if you want to see the glories of Stalinism. In many cases the rural folk were WAY worse off under Leninism and then Communism. He pillaged the countryside on behalf of urban industialism and built that with lotsa slave labor as well. The gulags were linked with the mining in the east, and he saw constantly filling the worst jobs with prisoners and making them gulags. The camp system was a slave system to feed industry and had nothing to do with the guilt of an inmate.
That was a joke. The fake soviet justice system was created to feed the camps, instill terror and supress dissent. They were worse than the robber barons of capitalism ever dreamt of being and child labor was the norm during the war.

The Germans DID use human hair to make blankets, that is documented, but even that is rather benign. Internees at the camps had to be deloused because of the typhus epidemic
and so were shorn of hair. This hair as well as their clothing and old bedding was fumigated and cleaned. Germans were under a blockage and were already recylcing fibers and using rayon in uniforms... and the ever ingenious Germans said "why throw this out?" so they used it.

Stalin was an equal opportunity murderer...he purged the party, he purged the military, he displaced minorities, he hired juden, he killed juden, he was a paranoid in the extreme and killed anyone he felt could threaten him, and some just to show that he could and instill terror in the hearts of rivals. But there is no evidence of any validity to suggest he really favored any particular group over others although he had a fondness for the Cavalry as he was a prior Cavalry man I think.

Hitler reindustrialized his society without a massive series of murders. He did have one prison for political detainees and that was Dachau. He did have one purge of note but that was for his own party and that was the 'Night of the Long Knives'. In communism purges are a constant part of communist 'life'.
They never stop, they just get bigger of smaller over time.

Stalin paved his streets with blood. Hitler's camps in the main were not up and running until after Operation Barbarrosa was well underway. Prior to that deportation was preferred. Stalin's camps had been up and running for years, and before that during Lenins time they just shot you. There were few if any trials in the soviet union and then they were showtrials.

In fact Himmler learned how to run his camps by studying Stalin's during the Non-Aggression Past years. In point of fact FDR and the American press considered Stalin to be part of the Axis during these years!

Lose the allied propaganda version of history kids... just taint so!

The communists always considered that murdering 10% of their population to be a part of the initiating the 'dictatorship of the proletariat'... and that is what they did in every nation in which they conquered from within or without.

Hitler brought alot of social change. His party had gobs of pro-labor groups within it and he was trying to create a society without classes. Prior to him their was a clear class structure and the aristocracy held all the cards. He built his juggernaut with a minimum of initial bloodshed and alot of social change in the way that society was run. His economic miracle was worker friendly and has yet to be repeated anywhere on the face of the planet. His body count was mostly the result of the war and the number of dead in the camps is WAY lower than the propagandists would have you believe... the International Red Cross says about 400k and they had access to ALL the camps. It was the soviets who pushed the 6million figure. Only 10 % on average of German POW's came back from the POW camps and another million died in Eisenhowers camps based on his orders to starve them and subject them to exposure.

The German people loved Hitler because he restored national pride and rebuilt the nation out of a depression that hit German worse than any other nation. As a result of this they agreed to follow him anywhere. Stalin murdered his way into power and murdered to stay in. There was never a time when he wasn't killing or plotting to kill, and kill big! The SS was able to rekruit volunteers almost anywhere the Germans occupied to fight Bolshevism, the soviets press ganged the majority of their troops.

More civilians died as a result of allied bombing of German industry than died in the camps, and that includes lotsa the involuntary workers and POW's! the allied bombs killed lotsa them! The deaths in the camps were mostly from typhus and at the end from starvation from the lack of food getting to the camps AGAIN because the allies bombed the stink out of the logistics system that supplied them. Before that they ate.

We are NOT better off having 'won'... We could have cut a deal with Adolph as could have Churchill and still banged the Japs. if we wanted. Europe today under the EU is AGAIN turning into a slow strangle of human rights, we had a cold war against the &@%# USSR for 44 years after the war, costing us in the west TRILLIONS and the lives of our soldiers in North Korea, Vietman, and elsewhere. We were not allowed to win those because of commie lovers in our own government and the libtard press here.

Millions more died in USSR and Chinese, Cuban, and Vietnamese, Laotion and Cambodian camps during that time and in some places like N Korea and China still do... and we have a brain dead mulatto marxist in the White House who is also an illegal alien and hates this country the way it is and wants to remake it in his own mulatto marxist image.

No Kormrades, we should let Adolf march to Vladivostok in my book, period. The Reich was actually getting more tolerant racially over time in order to accomodate most of its allies. I have no problem with our crashing Hirohito's dreams of empire, he and his military did unspeakable things to the Chinese and others, but it is rare we hear about his atrocities in the press... wonder why that it so... might have something to do with who runs our press,
then and now. we whitewashed their medical atrocities, but went looking for Mengele, one guy, whereas the Japs had a whole medical battalion dedicated to vivisection of our POW's.
RKKA POW's in the main died because the Wehrmacht captured so many and Stalin's scorched earth policy left the land with little to use to feed them with. Germany capture 2 million! almost as many men as they had in their whole invasion army! how to feed and house such a mob! hence many died of exposure and starvation in the early part of the war. Others died of typhus.
A million or more joined the Vlasov's Russian Liberation Army or other Axis units, militias, and security units of various ethnicities.
There was no systematic murder or plan to do so of RKKA POW's.
Their body count can be attributed to logistics and desease in the main. The number of persons in the global war effort on both sides is truly staggering on both sides, and we sometimes have a hard time wrapping our brains around it. Remember 9 milion troops died in ww1 and 18 million died in the Flu epidemic after it, but we forget that because the politics of that period are boring in comparison. So to see such a dead count based on the size of the conflict should NOT be a source of accusation on its own... but people want to do the simple, stupid and purile thing and blame someone, so every F-tard on the planet has been programmed by the libtard media to act like Pavlov's dog and blame Adolph. One man among many.

Read Suvorov's book "The Chief Culprit"... he is former KGB and blames Stalin for the war. I agree, but would add FDR and the British Empire, the Illuminati, and the Brit and US banksters.
They have collectively been starting and financing wars for over 200 years.

The demonic family at the center of that is named Rothschild.

An impartial study of the evidence would suggest to the prudent man that communism was and is the biggest pile of doodoo that ever fell out of satan's rectum! the highest body count,
the most horrors per square inch, the most useless violence,
the most wasted potential. The Russians and other people's of the east have flatly regected in and have warned us of its excesses, but that does not stop the libtrards in our press from continuing to build a rosy picture around it that they fabricated while smoking reefer and taking LSD and engaging in bad sex during the 60's while bad mouthing our troops in Vietnam who were fighting to liberate the Vietnamese from the tyranny of Ho chi Minh.

I suggest you all see the movie 'Katyn' about the Katyn forrest massacre of Polish Officers after the soviet invasion of Poland. That was the model they used for most oppression, although in many cases they tortured persons prior to that. We're talking eye gouging, scalping, live skinning, you name it, they did it with regularity. Even later after Stalin they were using psychiatric 'hospitals' to experiment on dissidents because they figured if you opposed communism, you must be crazy so they doped you up or lobotomised you or some other sick crap. Read Solzenytsen's "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich" if you want a glimpse into gulag life.

I like doing ww2 reenacting and RKKA, but I will never harbor ANY belief that communism ever created a system that was anything but evil and anti-Chirst in the extreme. If you wanted to save millions of lives by going back in time to stop genocide, go back and bomb the train that brought Lenin and his denizens to Russia.
Without them Hitler could never have become a politician in Germany. Without the 1917 Revolution 60 milion Easterners in the Russian Empire and another 60 million Chinese might still be alive.

The libs in the press here have since before ww2 been anti-German and anti-Hitler, anti-NSDAP, and pro-commie. They covered up the Ukrainian Holomodor, the campaign of murder and repression conducted by Stalin and the NKVD against Ukrainian independent farmers. the body count for that one is 10 million.

I suggest reading "The black Book of Communism" about communist murder and atrocities. Atrocity and murder was part and parcel of communism from the very beginning.

Read it and weep.

Volodymyr

ps
if this thread is going to devolve into a ridiculous boo hoo hoo about 'who killed who' we should move it over to the 'heated discussions page' although I suggest we end it here and now. With 50 milion dead in ww2 there is enough blood to go around to paint allied and axis alike as genocidal madmen, and no good will come out of such a discussion but alot of ignorant poot and silly namecalling.

Just my 2 kopeks or so.

[vsahdneek]

ps

thanks for the opportunity to write a paper! LOL! my that was refreshing!

Volodymyr

[dixieflyer]

Just because Stalin slept with Jewish women does not provide proof that he was not an anti-Semite. I know, unfortunately, a couple of white men who routinely sleep with black women, who are virulent racists. The proof is out there, all over the place. Stalin was just as horrible a dictator as Hitler in my book, if not worse. Stalin created a truly totalitarian state whereas Hitler and his toadies only played at it. Truly, Hitler never could have created the totalitarian state because Germany's culture would not have permitted it. Russia had not culture in place in 1917 to prevent it (guilds, trade unions, etc.)

Yuri

[dixieflyer]

Velodya,
Just so you are clear where I stand, I'm not saying that the things Hitler did, and that you read in the book, are not disgusting, they are, and I'm glad we did win. However, all of eastern Europe and Eastern Germany suffered in the victory in ways Western Europe did not. Even during the war Western Europe did not suffer in the way that Eastern Europe and the USSR did.
I'm reading "1945: The War That Never Ended". Very revealing. I've always maintained that Hitler and the Third Reich were replaced by something just about as bad, and that that empire lasted much longer, tortured, and killed more innocents than the Third Reich did.

Yuri

[velodya]

I took a quick break and this thread exploded!

Now let me clarify some things.

Tovarisch Vsahdneek: What I have said about the Danzig Anatomical Medical Institute is documented. Ehrenburg never even knew about it because it was hushed by the authorities. This kind of information would have prompted horrific reprisals, which the USSR was starting to realize were bad for the post-war relationship between the DDR and USSR. This info comes from the Russian State Military Archives, and the State Archive itself contains a letter form Shvernik to Molotov discussing what had been found.

These studies into leather and soap were feasibility studies, not mass production. It was on a very limited scale, namely several hundred people.

You are right that Stalin was equal opportunity, but you are wrong in claiming that concentration camps were based off gulag. Gulag was a labor camp, not designed for extermination. Dachau opened in 1933. The Nazi-Soviet pact wasn't signed until 1939. Thats six years of building them where Nazis could not have had inspiration from the Soviets.

Hitler's brand of fascism revolved around revived traditionalism and power with business. To ensure there was no sweeping social change (and I refer to change that is progressive in nature) Hitler rubbed out the semi-socialist wing of his party, namely the SA, to avoid having progressive social change.

The red cross was not given access to soviet-camps. To do so would reveal very dramatic violations of the geneva convention. Additionally, the German death rate in soviet camps was close to 10-15%, not the survival rate. The figures are clear and I don't grasp why you deny them. I generally respect you very much, but you are quite wrong about this. Allied POWs able to see Russian satellite camps were able to report that they were literally worked to death without food. They went out for work details and a third didn't come back. There's a documentary on DVDs of Stalag 17 now where one of the American POWs just starts crying uncontrollably when he describes how the Russians were starved and worked to death on the other side of the fence.

There was a systematic plan for Soviet POWs, and Soviet peoples. They were "untermenschen" and were destined for slave labor and annihilation so their land could be taken and used for "lebensraum." In Hitler's eyes, Slavs and communists were only a baby-step above Jews.

Regarding communism as a whole, virtually no one argues that Stalin was communist. Most communists believe firmly that Trotsky should have succeeded Lenin. And after Stalin, Khrushchev launched de-Stalinization and reforms. Give credit where credit is due. Stalin was a bad guy, but we all recall what Chruchill said "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

Well gentlemen, Hitler did invade and he did launch a campaign to exterminate Slavs. He failed and reaped what he sowed, which was strangely a lot less than he planted.

[vsahdneek]

Hold the bus Irene! LOL!

First off I would say you have to take anything that came out of soviet 'archives' with a mother lode of salt! Remember this was an evil empire that routinely 're-made' history to suit the tastes and perspectives of Uncle Joe or who ever else was in charge. Don't be so gullible.

The world accepted the German forensic study of the Katyn Forrest massacre, but that did not stop the USSR from digging these corpses up AGAIN and then trying to pin the blame on Germany. They did this routinely with footage the Germans shot of finding NKVD mass murder sites. It was soviet 'evidence' that was used at Nuremburg, and the allies tortured the bulk of the German 'suspects' into confessions just like Uncle Joe did at his kangaroo courts.

The soviets even produced fake footage of soap they claimed was made out of inmate fat!
So the 'evidence' preceeds this latest 'find'. Sounds more like the 'find' of Anne Frank's diary if you ask me, which was also proved to be a fake, written in post war ball point pen, or all the picures of Uncle Joe with strangely missing other party members. Uncorraborated I trust little of what comes out of soviet archives. There is a historian who just got all his research into the purge victims confiscated by Russian authorities recently, and I find it odd that these archives of which you speak have just now been miraculously 'found'. Despite Medvedev's statements to the contrary, there is an attempt by some in the Russian Republic to rehabilitate the Stalinist era and it would not be a stretch to believe this new 'found' soap study is a fabrication and distraction.

Having said that, it is not impossible that such a study was done, but I can tell you that it was undoubtably kyboshed by the SS who would never subject Aryans to washing with the filthy remains of people they considered unclean! It would be a disgusting a thought in the mind of an SS man to do so as it would be to ask a Kosher rabbi or Muslim Iman to eat pork!
So I think your outrage is misplaced, unverifiable, and out of perspective.

Most of the worst things that happened or were contemplated by German authorities in ww2 were reactions to conditions and trying to make do in bad conditions as opposed to ghoulish crap. I think I can say without reservation that it was not the German intent to invade the east because they were looking for a source of materials for soap, leather, bone, and fiber (hair). Such talk would be pure ghoulish allied propaganda and fantasy... but if you watch nothing but hollyweird crap on the hollywoodcost that is the kind of mindset you could accumulate.

If that is the kind of visions you prefer of ww2, I would be happy to send you a schlockfest of bad cinema including "Ilsa, She-wolf of the SS" ... "Red nights of the Gestapo" and "Escape from Stalag 69" and other Naz-ploitation' movies. They are a hoot and about as schlocky a horror-fest that you can get. But they are not history, and neither is the allied propaganda and fake documentation produced by the soviets to cover up their own atrocities.

The Germans talked big early on about wiping out this group of that, and in the early part of the eastern campaign some einsatzgruppen did behave just as badly as the NKVD and pulled the same badness, but in point of fact Himmler and the SS did model their camps after those of Stalin's and they were labor camps. And it is also fact that it was always the communist model to murder whole 'classes' of people and did so. They did this to their part of Poland that they invaded, and worse so than the Germans did to their half.

I find it ridiculous for people to think that on the one hand, eliminating your racial enemies is bad, but on the other hand, eliminating your class enemies is okay... what a load of horse dung! The French 'revolution' and Red 'revolution' did the same thing, the intentional murder of whole classes of people. Why is class murder okay and race murder bad? I submit to you that you have already been somewhat brainwashed by a school system that is marxist at its root and who in some way believes that class envy and murder is okay but race murder is bad.
And that probably if we passed a law to kill off say, all middle management because they are counter revolutionary or disliked the state or were getting in the way of health care reform you would be happy with that, but if we passed a law to kill off all blacks or gays because they are more likely to have AIDS you would scream bloody murder.

Now do you see what I am getting at?

The extermination camp theory is just that, a political accusation. And to say that the gulags were labor camps and not mismanaged to ensure a high death count is to say something as ridiculous as decon for mice is a food supplement.
They were purposefully brutal and minimal because the soviets were not interested in the survival of the inmates at all. Just some labor and death and the fear to others of being sent to a gulag to instill compliance to soviet rule for the rest.

The SA was put down because it was led at the time by Ernst Roehm, a gay with red leanings who wanted to replace the army with the SA under his leadership. The Army, the SS, the industrialists, and traditionalists did not like him, and Himmler convinced Hitler that Roehm was plotting against him. So he had to go, and Himmler and Goerring came up with a list of others who they felt did not fit in or whose ideologies were suspect.

I don't know where you get the fancilful figure of 10 - 15% dead for German POW's in soviet camps... only 1 in 10 of Von Paulus's 6th Army ever got back to Germany, and I doubt the figure gets better for other units or men captured. He worked most to death in his gulags and kept them until the mid fifties in many cases. Many died on the way to marching to the camps.
He did the same with recaptured eastern peoples who had aided Germany in the war effort and even recaptured soviet POW's and in some cases soviet soldiers that got to friendly with the west once the forces met at the end of the war. The figure you quote can not even be the rate of survival in the west as Ike murdered about 1 million German POW's in his camp. And then their were the loses do to operation Keelhaul thanks to Truman.

Poland and Russia are currently going through a period of reconciliation and Germany still has a zionist boot on its neck and does not air its side of the story. Russia today is torn between those who acknowledge the evil that was communism and its bloodbath, and those who wish to glory in the GPW victory for the morale of the current generation. They are between a rock and a hard place. If they speak the truth about the soviet era, they end up talking about basically 3 things, horror, war, and technology. If they don't then they leave out talking about 72 years of eastern history. German History books today in most cases go up to 1933 and restart in 1945. Russia has a larger span or time to forgive and forget. I sympathisize with their dilema of trying to teach some pride on one side while dealing with the horror that was the basis of obediance in the soviet system. How do we teach 'we won the GPW but this is how and this is what the govt did to our own people and others before during and afterwards'.

I truly sypathize with German and Russians and how to rebuild national consciousness in a positive and productive manner...but creating myths is not the way to go, the myth of German ghoulishness or the myth of a benign communist system where only Stalin is the bad guy but not in fact worse than Hitler.
And where Hirohito and Mao are not even discussed, or Lamay and Harris and Dresden.

I question any definition of anti-semitism currently in vogue. Judiasm is a religion, its ceased to be a homogenous ethic group ages ago and the nebulous term 'anti-semitism' is like haggas, a meal made of whatever you want to stuff into the sheeps stomach and then cook it.
It refers in a mispelled manner to the Shemites, and most of these people today are Arab Muslims, whereas most of the jews of today are Ashkenazi, or Khazar converts derived from the 7th Century. The actual term was created by some 19th century critics of the jews, and it is odd to me that jews would use such a term. Why not just use the term anti-jewish if that's what you or they mean?

Hitler's use of government was highly socialistic and that was a complete break with 'tradition'. Do not compare it with what some people today call 'corporate fascism', as they have nothing in common. Hitler was in the lead chair, and business had to jump to his tune, have no doubt about that. Business had to support him because the alternative was communism and a complete loss of their assets, or the continuing malaise of the Weimer Republic and its corruption and economic decay and stagnation. The aristocracy by then had been discredited and could not gather enough seats in the Reichstag to govern, and cut a deal with Hitler and the NSDAP. Their options were limited. They liked his plans for rearmament and the Autobahn and such as it meant economic rebirth. He created all sorts of organizations that transformed Germany, like the RAD, the NSKK, the NSFK, the DAF, The Hitler Jugend, Ley's Strength Through Joy cruiseline, and the list goes on and on. To say he did not transform Germany socially is simply ignorant. If you like I can recommend gobs of books on the topic. He put a huge number of people into a plethora of uniforms in various services to the state who had never been in uniform or worked for the state before. He gave people loans for having babies, and created the Volkswagen so the average man could own a car. He mechanized Germany.

If that is not social transformation I don't know what is!!! Germany is a nation of engineers and techs today, and although they have been oriented in this way for some time, Hitler and the NSDAP gave that dream wings in the extreme.

We have to stop thinking that social change is always some kind of dumb 'progressive' marxist change. That is what the libtards here in the US and Europe would like you to believe but that would be false. Pol Pot conducted a huge amount of social change, problem is it involved class genocide and DE-industrialization of Cambodia. That is social change too, even though it is horrible and devolutionary in a manner, and aimed at RE-agriculturalizing a society. Change can go in many directions, only the ignorant think it always goes in one direction. Libtard 'progressives' and marxists think that way, but in point of fact change is multi-directional and can go in whatever direction the powers that be chose up to the point where reality, God, science or backlash from the masses intervenes.

Plans are just that, plans, but the fortunes of war change plans. The SS originally started with a requirement of being over 6 foot tall and having no fillings in their teeth. Later they were letting convicted poachers out of prison for anti-partisan work. They rekruited everywhere.

There were even 1/2 and 1/4 jews in the Wehrmacht with 'Honorary Aryan" papers. The need for labor in the war production of the Reich changed all the 'plans'. Hell, this country had 'plans' to terrorize US citizens to encourage a war with Cuba at one point! And to fly planes into buildings to stir up animosity against various enemies! The soviet POW's were not fed based on shortages, period. You feed who you need when you are under blockade. There is a pecking order here. Stalin did not sign the Geneva accords and the soviet partisans practiced torture and murder of captured German sentries and others. There was no Geneva convention therefore on the eastern front.

The soviets got as bad as they gave. Blaming Germany for merely responding in kind to soviet policy is hypocritical, you do see that, don't you? So why crow about soviet loses? Everyones losses suck and its hypocritical to crow about some and ignore others like the libtard hollywierdcost press does. The communists certainly were unconcerned with the loses of those they conquered. Communists from 1917 on NEVER operated under internationally acceptable laws regarding the treatment of human beings within or without of their borders. They did not believe in God, normal ideas about law, NOTHING. Everything was for the State and its leader. Anything else could be done to promote the ongoing global revolution and its destruction of every other non-communist ideology or tradition.

You have to understand that communism was nihilistic with regards to EVERYTHING that preceeded it. It was truly the devil's ideology, fascism was a reaction to it. Most of the camps were in Poland and to the east, and were not built until after 1939, and that is where the jews and non-Germans from the east were held. The penal system in Germany that the Gestapo inherited was used primarily for regular criminals and German political prisoners. Non-aryans in general were sent to the east. Dachau was a prison before Hitler came to power.

As for Churchill, the man was a mess, and until Field Marshall Bernard Montegomery was put in charge of the North Afrika Campaign (and became later the head of British Forces wherever the fighting was to be done), he made bad decision after bad decision and dand near lost the war for Britain. He was a trainwreck waiting to happen and was either a first class moron or was paid to mess up everything he touched. Monty pulled Britain's feet out of the fire. Churchill was a mess in ww1, and ww2. He was the author of among other things the mess that became Galipoli. Its a wonder the man rose in politics at all, except perhaps that his peers were that much worse!!! Kinda like having to chose between Bush and Gore... they are both losers and stupid, but Gore takes stupidity to a whole new leveL

There were people like Moseley who could have cut a deal with Hitler and finalized that part of the war without further bloodshed between Germany and Britain but the banksters were only interested in their power and money and cared not a fig for British lives.

The NSDAP wrote alot about how much they didn't like these people and that, but that was the party. In point of fact cooler heads inside the gully works of the Wehrmacht and SS prevailed and decisions were made for more practical reasons, regardless of the regrettable outcomes for some of the victims. If Germany had food for everyone including the soviet POW's then the conquering allies would have found immense quantities of food lying around Germany in storage waiting for distribution, but in point of fact you even had severe malnutrition amongst German troops on the eastern front periodically. There simply was no food lying around for the soviet POW's who were captured by the millions. Stalin's scorched earth policy was a contributing factor to that as was the allied bombing campaign of the German logistical system. You can't blame them for food they did not have but applaud the allies for their use of strategic warfare in the same breath. What was the Axis supposed to do, give the soviets back their POW's because they could not be fed? I think that would be highly unrealistic.

The systematic 'plan' was just that, and unfullfiled due to wartime necessity. IF the NSDAP had wanted all its untermenschen dead, they would be dead. They were thorough and efficient when they wanted to be. After an initial bloodletting, cooler minds prevailed, and the camps were set up for labor, not genocide, and the 6million figure is a soviet era fiction designed to destract the gullible western allies from their own atrocities.

I am 50 and have been researching this stuff for most of my life. I don't espect people new to this topic to know what I know, but harping on a feasibility study about soap from a nebulous source in my book pales in comparison to the overwhelming atrocities and bloodbath that was the communist system and was always part and parcel of 'red terror' which always was part of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat'.

Nope, if we had only commies and nazis to vote for to hold leadership positions, I'll take the nazis in a NY minute! Communism is a soulless Godless ideology that reduces mankind to dog eat dog tyranny that would destroy everything in its path and almost did. We could not have this discussion in a communist society. We might be able to get away with it in a Fascist one. For a while at least, and in my book, there are no communist virtues to argue about anyway. And if this was a fascist world, we would be just wearing different uniforms in a different parade, but I doubt we sould be reading about drivebys or crack babies or interracial marraige, and that would be okay in my book.

The world would have been a better place if communism as an ideology had never existed, and then I doubt fascism would have had an inroad as a result, because it was mostly a backlash against leftist excess and crime, specifically from bolshevism.

I think the problem most people have with the study of ww2 right now is that so much of the allied propaganda is still being force fed to the masses because if people really new to the degree to which the allies were guilty of horrific warcrimes before, during or after the war there would be a mass revolt and the existing 'order' would be overturned.

I work for that day! the existing order based on the depraved values of wall street and london bankers, hollyweird and madison avenue must be destroyed utterly and forever!!! Blame the bankers in the end, without their deceit and treachery no dictator of any kind does his work! And this could be accomplished with the normal use of our franchise (vote) and not even a bloody revolution.

Our founding fathers gave us a window of freedom, and frankly the average American schmuckdog urinates it away every day watching football and eating junkfood. Pelosi and the other monsters just passed a 'death to health care' bill that will destroy what is left of our economy and health care system unless we can kill it in the Senate. It is all about rationing it and taking it from those who work and giving it to those who don't. The workers will be the ones to suffer in the end, and our untermensch here of illegal aliens, welfare queens, and other criminal crackhead lazy bum d-bags will continue to profit from ohbummer's 'change'.... the lose change in our pockets going to pay for their transfusions after they shoot each other fighting over drug and ho turf.
That is where our das kapital is going, Komrade! To a permanent untermensch created by the false debutante socialist libtard madam pelousy!

We must rise up Komrades as one man and smash this evil bureau-rat demogogocrat filth in every poll, at every meeting, at every blog, at every forum! Only when the debu-crats are drowned out can we replace this wretched system of corruption with the purity of our Father's Vision! A nation free of perks and politicians, priviledge and power. There are only 2 hands that wield the power, and that is the hand of God and the hand of the citizen-soldier-worker!

We need to strip govt back to the bare bones it started with and then the average citizen will be able to afford what he or she needs in a free marketplace of ideas, goods, and services.

Join me in the true Revolution Komrades!
Commissar Volodymyr has spoken!

( with a few chuckles thrown in for good measure! )

ps

as to whether of not Stalin was a communist, I disaggree. He expanded on everything his predecessors did except for the fact he he claimed to want 'socialism in one country' first, and
tamed down the public international pressure for world revolution. But I think that this in point of fact was just more intrigue. He continued to spy on and undermine other societies and support revolution where possible abroad. He did this in Spain and certainly did it after ww2.

A better thing to say would be that Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin were not Marxists per se in the main. They used his ideology to some extent, but behaved more like opportunistic illuminati monsters than systematic creators of an alternative structure. Everything they did they did to collect and wield power, terror, and fear. Everything else was just window dressing. The only thing they did religiously was practice the old addage "say one thing and do another". They got that routine down pat, which is why it is so hard to study communism and its history because so much of the 'documentation' could just as well be a fabrication.

And this is the fundamental difference between National Socialism and Communism. The Party answered to Hitler and even Hitler believed he would have to answer to God. Communists do not believe in God or an afterlife and do mot believe in morality of any kind... they think it is a bougeosie mirage and a yoke that keeps them from engaging in 'socialist experimentation'. They really do not care whatsoever who dies or is in pain if it somehow 'serves socialism and the state', and they even accept that at some point they may end up with the pistol to the back of the head or dying the slow death in the gulag. Myths about a good communist outcome are just that... Rosy myths the party sold the masses while engaged in senseless brutality.
Distractions to be taught to kiddies in their Komosol klasses!

In the end we have to ask ourselves this... would you or I be willing to take any one of our neighbors, known or unknown to us, and give them ultimate power over our lives? this is what happens when people are dumb enough to vote for big government in any form. In the end, either Fascism or Communism fail as badly as did Monarchism before it.
The are expensive wastes of assets that do not meet the needs of people, and one of those needs is to be in control of ones own life and assets. Leave social welfare spending to the Church and NGO's... charity and the family.

Govt is mostly organized theft and murder after the basics are covered, which is the best reason I can think of to keep it small and always answerable to an informed electorate.

So arguing about whether Hitler or Stalin was worse really depends on where the barrel of the gun is pointed. Germans would say the NSDAP is wunderbar, Russians would say Stalin was the Zvod, blah blah blah, but since the eastern front had no Geneva convention, it devolved into a dogfight and any attempt to distiguish the dogs becomes self serving poot.
Kinda like playing cards in hell. Regardless of who 'wins', you're still in hell.

Trying to find good in totalitarianism is a bit like looking for corn in a septic tank. Based on how corn gets digested, its a good chance you will find some, but it is just as likely that you won't want to eat it, and the search for it is disgusting too.

Take care, Komrade!

You might now ask why I do RKKA at all.
Cause ostfront events are cool and westfront events are boring
increasingly and I get to accumulate another cool kit, talk with a funny accent and cook for my komrades! and hang out and drink potatoe juice! and because Otryada Serzhant Boridin rekruited me and he is very persuasive! and because my first getting into this was to promote GPW-Ostfront events in the NE because...
fighting the GI's was getting boring. Acting like a goofy braindead peasant can be fun... and the potatoe juice dulls the memories and motivates the trigger finger and I can play with my PTRS-43 repro. If that sounds like a silly reason to do RKKA then paint me with the silly brush, because the average troglodyte RKKA soldat was no brighter or better motivated and so perhaps therefore I can do this impression accurately. The 'intellects' in the soviet camp were all party members or upper NKVD, etc... and I portray a barely functioning grunt cook and anti-tank gunner who is somewhat like Stimpy in that famous cartoon saying things like "Happy Happy Joy Joy".

Za Rodinu!

[velodya]

I never said they were recently "found." These documents have been there for a long time. As I said, this was not a long-term plan or any such thing, it was a later-war feasibility study to see if corpses could be used for ersatz materials. Only about 100 corpses were ever experimented on.

The einsatzgruppen were undeniably worse than the NKVD. Say what you will about the NKVD, but it wasn't their task to exterminate every Jew in every village.

Murdering large groups of people is bad no matter what, but targeting someone solely because you believe them to be an "inferior race" to your self is sick.

Paulus 6th Army cannot be used to claim massive deaths of POWs. Keep in mind that at Stalingrad about 850k of the million or so Axis troops died. The very fact that one out of ten returned is pretty amazing considering the few who survived the battle.

The Geneva Convention applies to any power that has signed, meaning Germany as a signatory had an obligation to follow it. Instead they were starving Russian POWs and working them to death, just like Jews.

As for plans, even though they change, victory would have brought about even more horrific plans on an even larger scale. The only reason it wasn't entirely done was that resources were needed to fight the war. If the Germans had won, you can bet their trains and trucks and soldiers would have started hauling Jews and Slavs to Auschwitz and the other camps.

Its important to the know the Soviets were the ones giving back as bad as the Germans gave. They didn't start the war, and they didn't start by raping and executing Germans. What the Russians did to the Germans was a direct response to what the Germans did to them.

And regarding age and studies, Antony Beevor the Historian who mentioned the Danzig Institute in his book is 63 and has been studying for most of his life. And his book I cited was very balanced in regard to what happened, so balanced that the Russian ambassador to the UK said it was "slander against the people who saved the world from Nazism."

In regards to the difference between communism and naziism is that each one kills different people. But while communism, once established, kills dissent and resisters, naziism kills everyone considered "inferior".
Given the choice between those, I'm more comfortable with communism.

Regarding our own political circumstances today I agree to an extent. Our government is stale. We have the same two parties that have created a rigid and inflexible system featuring two sets of different crap. And they aren't even accountable anymore. Us constituents always insist on thinking how bad congress is, EXCEPT for MY congressman or MY senator. On top of that there's the rampant special interests, etc.

But I tend to favor a social democracy with two spheres. I like government services such as health care, assuming it gets done well (unlikely for our government to do anything well though). So while I like a wide array of government services made available I believe in a separate sphere of personal freedoms in an almost libertarian sense. The government should be a support framework for the people and not the master.

[vsahdneek]

Oh my, here goes,

Von Paulus had 100k survivors, 10k made it back to Germany, that's a 10% survival rate and the worst of any nation in the war unless you look at the Japanese Rape of Nanking, which makes anything the Germans did look like a friggin folkdance and would even make the NKVD blush. The japs literally sport-killed and raped over a hundred thousand men, women, children and babies up close and personal in an unrelenting manner that makes this duscussion ridiculous.

The NKVD wiped out the entire Polish Officer Corp that it managed to capture... they tortured people in ways like scalping, skinning alive, eye gouging, using rats to burrow into people.
I never heard of the the Einsatzgruppen doing anything like that. You are unread or willfully ignorant on this one. The soviet system murderd almost 60 million of its own it is estimated
during its years of tyranny.

Nazi Germany was only interested in the long run in the jewish question, which means tops they were after 15 million on the planet, and it was more thatn happy to deport, but the Brits and US would take no more. How the *^#*#@^$ do you get off thinking they were the worse? can you even count? you did graduate elementary school math didn't you? Dang man, wake up and smell the MURDER!!! And the Maoist version of this filth did ANOTHER 60 milion it is estimated. Because they were accused of harboring what, counter-revolutionary ideas?
For being a teacher?

Commies kill anyone they think might give they 'trouble', like having a degree. That means as soon as you graduate and go looking for management work, you would be a target for them.
You are an independent thinker and like to argue and are educated. In a communsit society that would make you a prime suspect for counterrevolutionary tendencies and might not even make it to the gulag. Pok pok for you comrade! too smart! talk too much!

On the other hand, if you go and rob a bank to pay for school expenses and wind up in prison and Stalin get's elected, you might just become the next police commissioner in your town, because of course, you are just a victim or the capitalist system and now what its like to be oppressed by the man! LOL! that's about it... do the right thing and you become a suspect, do someting wrong and go to jail, and you become a 'heroe of socialism' and get promoted out of jail.

Them's the facts of life re/communism. It is a world stood on its head!!! There is no rosey reality in communism... AND its a blood cult. The flag represents the blood of the workers and peasants, and man do they ever like spilling it all the time for their gory glory! and it doesn't matter whose in the long run. Regardless of your service to 'the state and socialism' you can get the axe, because as an amoral system, its a constant struggle to keep an eye on who might rat you out to the KGB (or predecessor orgs), and if you are at the top, you have to manuever to stay alive... most of the leadership of Lenin's day got offed by Stalin, and he offed alot of his top dogs over time as well, including his NKVD chiefs. Whenever a new dog takes over, he always cleans out the leftovers of the old regime and brings in his own people and often with murderous results.

At least if you kill off the untermensch you might be thinning the herd and improving the stock. It may be cruel and illegal in normal terms but it may have an eventual genetic benefit to the species. To kill off the aristocracy and teachers, doctors, and lawyers and officers in a society in a commie system does the exact OPPOSITE and only ensures the next generation will be dumber and less able to control their stupidity and effectively utilize resources. So from a purely utilitarian viewpoint I gotta go with weeding out the dead undergrowth and saving management, if those are the choices, which fortunately are not now necessary nor were they then, so its a braindead moot point you are trying to make. As we all know class is temporary anyway. Give a man a new and different uniform and you have effectively changed his class. Even Hitler understood this. Stalin was less forgiving that Hitler! Anyone he did not like or he thought was a threat to him in any way was now a Kulak. And if he wanted to ratchet up the terror for any reason, or because he was in a bad mood, or needed more workers for the mines, then there you go, you are now a Kulak!!! have a nice trip to Siberia!
If you don't become target practice!

Farmers and Animal Husbansmen routinely thin the herd as does nature. Its natural. Brutal, but natural. Communism is unnatural. Killing everyone in a society that has an IQ over the average which is what commies like to do ensures poverty for all. Its the dumbest idea ever, but that's what stupid commie agitators and dictators like to do.... so you are okay with that because you think its not nasty? Killing for dumb reasons or no reason is sick, period, ... but you are okay with stupid murder but not eugenics for improving the eventual gene pool.
Incredible.

Ridiculous.

And I repeat, Stalin and the commies were not signitores to the Geneva accords and so Hitler felt that tying the hands of his troops would be foolish, so morally they were on an even playing field for that one. More RKKA POW's died than Wehrmacht because they captured more and had no lend lease coming in... it was a simple matter of logistical famine, and not by design. You ate if you signed on with the Fuehrer because that is all they had to offer and uncle Joe saw to that with the Scorched Earth Policy.

What the soviets did to everyone was by design, period. They were doing disgusting crap to people since 1917 and did not stop until the gulags were emptied. There was no letup ever, just ebb and flow or more or less. They invaded Poland between the wars, they invaded Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, fought in Spain, annexed Modldova. They created the Holomodor in the Ukraine starving 10 milion Ukrainians to DEATH. When the Wehrmacht liberated the Baltic nations they pulled gobs of tortured bodies out of the basements of GRU?NKVD 'police' stations. This was a system that had to be put down!!!

And I would not be so sympathetic to the jews of that era. They were linked massively to the bankster scams of the robber barrons, the mob, and they made up large segment of every communist party in Europe and the USA, as well as the GRU and NKVD. They helped craft the Treaty of Versailles that was a wholesale butt-F### of Germany. If they had been NOT involved in all that skullduggery they would have not received 'special treatment' to the extent that they did. Hitler was not a moron and was not one to waste resources on those he did not see as a threat.

You are arguing like a person who thinks he can pick up a turd by the clean end.
Communism has no clean end. All its 'successes' were the result of atrocity, murder and theft...
and it was in their script. And they liked it. They didn't all of a sudden start being bastards after Hitler attacked, and they were plotting an invasion of the west anyway. Hitler just beat them to the punch!

You are totally wrong about who communism kills also and have bought the big lie. You would not be safe in any communist nation. There is no safety in a fundamentally amoral system which assigns value to human life only temporarily. If the state sez you are to participate in an experiment, there you go, off to the lab!. If you resist, its off to the gulag for you or perhaps tortured, kangaroo courted and then its pok pok for you in the KGB's basement.

Terror in a communist state is ever present and universal. There is no such thing as comfort in a commie state. Here's an idea, try crossing into North Korea illegally and sample their prison system. See ya if you survive in 20 years!!!

And as for our govt, they have no ability to get anything done right or cheaply. I served in the Army and now work as a contractor for the PO and under no circumstances do I want these fools running Health Care.... they have had over 225 years to get the Army and PO right and they are still F-ing that up. They have made a mess out of medicaid and medicare, will not fix the real culprits, like the cost of illegal aliens and malpractic insurance, but they want to gobble up another part of our economy in the midst of 10 + % unemployment.

They are brain dead and the only part of Stalinism I like would be if he came back and purged our political system of the 2 parties currently raping us. Just pok pok them all and give govt back to the states. Bring all the troops and gear home and put them on the border and invade Mexicao and Canada and commence apartied by lattitude! Force the hip hoppers to move to mexico and the other non workers.

It is a myth that you can have socialism without a racially and religiously homogenous society because what people want or need from their govt and the degree to which they will comply is based on their basic values and those are racial and religious at root and any govt that fails to mirror this is doomed to failure, and I count failure as misery taht the govt creates or could avoid. By that definition communism is the worst of all systems. It caused more misery than any other system ever.

What I want from govt and what a hip hopper or raghead might like are way different things. So we basically have a choice:

We either allow for a mulattoized mudblood society of duhbrains but have libertarian social and pure capitalist values so no one has to put up with other people's values in our legal and economic system, or we can have societies with single race/religion structures that can be socialistic because such a homogenous society would be able to agree internally on what is needed to be provided in common.

I don't want to pay for hip hop abortions, AIDS drugs for Homosexuals, or other services and they probably don't want to pay for my free hunting licenses so the only way to keep the peace in a mudblood society is to let everyone pick up their own tab but cut taxes WAY down so each individual can pay thier own way and be their own keeper.

That or start shipping them all out. I could deal with White Christian Socialism here because it could work. But if we are to have a tossed salad of races and religions here, libertarianism is about the only thing that would keep the peace and ensure efficiency in the delivery of goods and services that anyone would not resent paying for, and their would be more peace and less argument and political infighting. That would be a nice change.

Those are the choices as I see it. Any other system I feel requires the brutal and unjust heavy hand of govt which we have all seen has tried and failed and just makes a society contentious and brutal and unproductive.

And we have plenty of evidence to support the above. We already know that limited govt works, we used to have it here! and we also know that the Scandanavians are fairly happy with their socialism and it worked UNTIL they started allowing other races and religions to come to the party... but now they have BIG problems, mostly with the arab-muslims who are F-ing up the whole deal. Same crap here with the illegal aliens.... mostly hispanic and chinese.

Whenever you have a great system worth protecting, you have to become INCREDIBLY ano about who you let in afterwards w/r/t your borders. Bu Bu Bu Big head dead ted kennedy F-ed this country up with his 'reform' of immigration laws that allows now an endless stream of relatives to come here.

And we should killed that anchor baby BS years ago.

Just 2 more of my Kopeks.

But pleasey louisey, stop trying to pick up the commie turd by any end thinking its clean...
no one I have ever met who used to live in a commie nation sings its praises.
Most are adamant anti-bolsheviks, others just shudder and want to forget.

If I act like a happy commie at an event, its just that, an act.
I leaned how to do that in the US Army when I had to bull-poop my chain of command
to tell them how rosey it was during inspections blah blah blah.
I am sure most RKKA soldats wore that fertilizer eatin grin when in the presence of
superiors and the NKVD as well to stay our of trouble. Its what you did to survive
and stay out of trouble so you can live one more day in the hope that perhaps it might
get better, someday. I do admire those that survived on either side. They truly passed
through hell's kitchen.

Za Rodinu!

Volodymyr

[crazydima]

Tovarsichi,

Wow!

I never thought I would see so much effort put into trying to determine who was Worse....Stalin or Hitler. LOL!

Being that I am just a simple Illinois Boy I have trouble understanding the reasoning for this thread.

However, this forum is about the free exchange of ideas and the sharing of views and research on the various aspects of WWII, RKKA and all things Soviet. So far be it from me to stop a spirited debate.

We can spend all sorts of time and effort developing and comparing laundry lists of the terrible things perpetrated by each one of those miscreants(i.e. Death Camps vs Gulags; Chekka/SMERSH vs. SS; jars o gold teeth vs. frozen bodies; Berlin Airlift, etc. etc. etc.)

However, in the end we are still talking about two individuals who are responsible for the deaths, torture and unimaginable suffering of millions of people.

IMHO trying to establish who was the worse of the two is just plain silly.

Evil is evil and those men (as well as the likes of Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, etc. etc.) were both terrible in ways which no words can truly describe.

My hope is that nobody else will come along and raise the bar and set a new record when it comes to mass murder, suffering and atrocities to mankind. Two World Wars and one Cold War is more than enough for mankind to use as a benchmark for destruction, suffering and death.

May God have mercy on the souls who are the victims of men like Stalin and Hitler. May God forgive man for letting such monsters come to power.

Sincerely,

Dima
(God bless us and protect us from threats both foreign and domestic)