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Post by dixieflyer on Nov 9, 2009 22:39:33 GMT -5
Agreed Dima, I view them both as being in the same league, pure evil.
Yuri
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Post by vsahdneek on Nov 10, 2009 5:55:10 GMT -5
Amen Dima!
I think Velodya and I just like a good spirited debate from time to time, it keeps the mind sharp to be sure! No harm done. He prefers class warfare and I prefer race war to lower the population excesses. LOL!
"Iron sharpens Iron" it is said, and having said that I think we can put this topic to rest....a
and God save us from another spat of govt organized population reduction as has been done in the past. That's what's God's plagues, bad weather, and Tsunamis are for! ... that and the odd asteroid.
Where's Nibiru (Planet X) when you need it. Now if we could only get an asteroid to hit the Tex-Mex border....
You know, we all decry the tragic losses of the 20th century, but oddly enough, all the wars this world has had haven't in the long run done squat to manage the size of the ever growing human population. Even desease AND war and the rest has not abated mankinds capacity to over produce himself.
We might literally F this planet and ourselves to death!
THAT is going to be the real problem in the future. As much as I enjoy it, arguing about 'who killed who' is like playing musical chairs on the Titanic after the 'berg has been sighted and ignored.
Like Lenin and so many others have said,
"What to do?"
In my book, we should start by only letting hot chicks have kids, and then make sure they can't get abortions so the next generation of chicks would be that much hotter and larger.
Hot chicks simply don't have enough kids and its the ugly ones that do! Although maybe hot chicks should have all the girls and the mannish women should have sons... still got some work to do on the genetics.
Duty now for the future you hotties out there!
My small contribution to the human race, humbly submitted. LOL!
Volodymyr
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Post by velodya on Nov 10, 2009 17:14:29 GMT -5
lol. Yes, a good debate is always fun tovarisch Vsahdneek!
To each his own (tyranny that is).
-Velodya
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Post by vsahdneek on Nov 13, 2009 2:47:52 GMT -5
And that's really all any of us do here at worse, and that's debate, which is good for the mind. It forces us to really inspect what we believe and are willing to defend and come up with cogent reasons to defend whatever we are talking about. The worse thing would be to close off debate or say there is only one opinion worth believing, that would be a form of tyranny that I can do without, but you would be suprised how many forums are pc'ed to death out there and really do not serve the purpose of free and fair discussions and the 1st Amendment.
I am a big believer in the 'marketplace of ideas' where all are welcome to observe and chip in their 2 cents, and limited govt. that does not make opinions into policy. But whatever we do, we have to increase the supply of hot chicks and decrease the supply of fat stupid hags.
Then men would spend more time at home and make love and not war! I would gladly let my saber rust on the bedpost if my pink cannon got more action! LOL!
Volodymyr
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Post by crazydima on Nov 13, 2009 14:48:10 GMT -5
Tovarischi,
After reading over things again and digesting the exchanges I have to admit that it would be interesting to take all of the historical pieces of garbage(Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Mao Tse Tung, Et. ETc.) and try to establish a rating of who was the worst of the worst.
Now wouldn't that be a hoot! "The Worst of the Worst."
I would imagine that one would have to develop categories(most people killed, greatest amount of property damage done, most inhumane way of killing or torture, longest lasting effects, sphere of influence, etc etc.)
Then figure out how to quantify the actions of each tyrant based on performance in each category. Then tally up the categories and see who has the top score.
Personally it seems that each goofball had his own specialty and as a result may very well end up with a tie. LOL!
Oh well what a topic to discuss.
Sincerely,
Dima
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Post by velodya on Nov 13, 2009 18:07:14 GMT -5
Yes, thats an idea.
I recall a series on the military channel called "top 10." Now they need a special "10 Worst" show.
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Post by vsahdneek on Nov 14, 2009 0:22:43 GMT -5
Actually, I did see a book like that... a dictionary of criminals, A-Z, it didn't so much rate them as list them.
There was also something I saw on either Manswers of the History Channel about such a subject, perhaps just an internet site... (can't remember... musta had a bout with the potato juice pixie that night) on the 10 most lethal agents in the world.
These guys actually kill less than God and Nature in the long run... try as they might, desease and other acts of God or nature (depending on your belief system... do you think all acts of nature are acts of God, etc) have killed more over time.... who can forget the 'black death' that killed a third of Europe for example?
The worst people in my book are those that think the state has the right to use improper means for good ends. It never works. Improper means always end badly. Only just means yield just desserts. Worldwide idiocy is the problem... so few people have a proper sense or knowledge of what law, justice, or propriety mean it seems.
If we have to get rid of a class of people it would be politicians! they always like to do unjust things in the service of false utopian ideals! personally, I think there is something genetically wrong with such people too, so perhaps offing them would serve both ends... a means of ridding humanity of the worst DNA AND the worst 'class' of people. Both communism and national socialism were based on pseudo sciences that we now look at with deep reservations. National Socialists thought that all evil was at its root genetic and racial, so kill off the bad races and you will eliminate evil. Oh if it were all so easy! Communism fell out of satan's butt even earlier than that, and believed that certain classes of people were inherently evil and that people's motivations were only economic. What was he smoking?
If his class theory held any water, then based on my experiences I would have to kill off the urban poor and postal employees! those classes! so I guess we all see evil based on our individual environments and not on some silly theories which are always self-referencial in the long run. (Now don't go out and snuff the urban poor or USPS workers just because I have found those in my neck of the woods to be evil! LOL!).
Oddly, with all the love of science and tech, no one really has ever come out lately with a real theory coming from a real scientist that would finger any particular part of society to be snuffed for the greater good.
If there is a material cause to evil, it would have to be in DNA, but if that is so, gene therapy or some other chemical or other material treatment would probably have been found to supress it. Free will allows us to be evil, so people chose to behave badly. Class theory fails because if management is to blame, the revolutionary class should be executed after they eliminated the managers so as not to create another class of managers!
And if that is the case, then the best communist is actually a suicidal anarchist who destroys the old order and then hangs themself or goes into exile or a monastery or something after the old class order has been vacated.
Perhaps the best ideal is to have no ideals but to just try to live in the world as it is and not as we would like it to be. Idealists of the last 150 years or so seem to like to build their utopias on the backs and with the blood and bones of others. A utopia that divides and conquers will be divided and conquered from within or without, and that is precisely what happened to both Germany and the USSR... and the rest of the empires. I think the only reason China has so far escaped this fate is because Deng Xio Peng rejected Mao's way and reformed China away from communism towards a mixed economy and lost the revolutionary rhetoric and also because China has never really been interested in Empire or its burdens or costs, and this makes for a more stable society in the long run. Same with India.
My basic beef with the communist means to an end is that it is based on a fiction in the mind of Marx. He lived during a time when the idea of class itself was soon to become irrelevant because the old order, the aristocracy that had created and ruled on the basis of class and enforced such an order, was rapidly dissappearing! Capitalism in the Industrial age made it possible for the 'little guy' to develope an idea and take it to market, find investors, and then with hard work over time, go from rags to riches. The class order that Marx hated so much (and Hitler had no love of either, for that matter) was rapidly being transformed into an idea and capital economy where the concept of class was not at all fixed, and that any worker with ambition and smarts could become a business owner.
Even in Russia the old order was crumbling away. The bloodbath that Lenin and Trotsky initiated was unnecessary, self serving, and satanic. It served no useful purpose. If you are trying to liberate the worker, how does murdering them help? because their class suffered the worst of it, them and the peasant 'class'. Much of the aristocracy fled.
In Germany's case, the depression had already broken the hold of the aristocracy, that and the treaty of Versailles. WW2 mostly destroyed the western allied empires in the end, it burned them out and forced them to loosen thier grip on their possessions in Afrika and elsewhere. They fought themselves out of alot of their own power in the end. The posessions they stole from the losing powers in WW1 turned on them in turn! Sweet Irony!
And who came out on top? The USA!!! a society that never had any imperial or classist or collectivist or racial pretensions!!! Demonstrating that the other methods were FUBAR all along.
Problem is this country is now so full of dumbasses who bore easily they will adopt whatever falls out of Ohbummer's butt if they are not careful. The recent elections however give me hope that they are now experiencing sticker shock and are starting to see through the lies of the demo-rats.
Just a coupla more kopeks of my mental meanderings!
Volodymyr
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Post by velodya on Nov 14, 2009 12:04:09 GMT -5
I believe mankind is fundamentally bad, and I believe communism a good idea in theory. But because people are bad it fails.
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Post by dixieflyer on Nov 14, 2009 12:51:56 GMT -5
Yes, one of those things that looks great on paper or in theory, but doesn't work in reality. I use this example in my classroom.
First, I tell the kids that the basic philosophy is: from each according to his ability to each according to his needs. They're fine with that, they like it. Then, hehehehehehe, I tell them that from now on, I am going to take five points away from the students who made an A or a B and give those points to the students who made an F or a D. Boy howdy, you should see those faces then!!! "That's not fair! Those of us who made A's and B's worked hard for those grades! The kids who made D's and F's didn't do anything, didn't study, etc." I remind them that they all agreed that they agreed that to give to those that were without was a good thing. Lesson that they learn? That everybody is quick to think this is a great idea when it is someone else's grade points, money, goods, etc., but not when it is theirs.
Yuri S.
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Post by velodya on Nov 14, 2009 23:25:05 GMT -5
Yes. But at the same time I distrust capitalism almost equally so. Staying in the middle is good. Some socialization and some regulation.
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Post by vsahdneek on Nov 15, 2009 1:59:41 GMT -5
You can have a purely capitalist marketplace but then regulate it like any other human activity through the law to ensure it is not preditory and its products and services safe and unpolluted.
The problem with socialism is that there are no market forces in socialism or communism to keep costs down and to keep the producer (the govt) customer focused. Leave the charitable acts to charity and the church. Insurance can do the rest, it is essentially socialist in nature anyway. Public works programs and the military can take up the rest of the slack, but the welfare state or govt being a producer of goods and service is wasteful and corrupt at its core because the populace simply cannot be expected to be involved in that much oversight of govt, and that is why govt must be kept small so that it can be oversighted by the people without taking up so much time in the taxpayers lives. The US govt is now so big, along with its unions, that they have become a force unto themselves and no longer serve our interests, they try to rule us and that is not the basis of our Constitutional Republic. Our govt has become a big nasty bloodscking louse! pelouse-eeEEE!!!!
If govt regulates business then it is serving our interests, with us in turn regulating it through informed and free elections and referendums. When it BECOMES business and the main employer then we no longer have one group oversighting another. When govt becomes the primary employer of a nation THAT is when you have management tyranny at its worse! and history has shown that when you put both the law AND the means of production in the hands of one group, whether its feudalism, communism, or other kinds of centrist-socialism, you have tyranny.
The beauty of the original intent and practice of the US govt and Constitution is that our founding fathers knew that you have to make sure power does NOT collect in too few hands.
Monopolists of whatever type are the ENEMIES of freedom! They have the insane notion that consolodation of power serves the public good but this is a CROCK. Only competition in the markeplace maintains quality and customer focus and reduces costs.
The only problem capitalism has is when it becomes Robber Baron monopolist style capitalism and might as well be called industrial feudalism. But then the answer became clear to our last century fathers and they created anti-trust legislation, which has not been used by a president I think maybe since Reagan. Neither Klinton nor Bush stopped the consolidation of business during their reigns of stupid. When you have a competitive marketplace you have capitalism, when it becomes monopolistic you no longer have capitalism, you have an enemy of freedom, quality, and cost comtainment. Bureaucracy in business gets just as bloated as that in govt when it consolidates power.
I live near Rochester NY. Home of Kodak. They are still a pretty big company here but have about 1/3 of its former # of employees. Their success in becoming a near monopoly in the film and processing industry became the root of their eventual near collapse during the digital revolution. They had about 90% of the market at one point and then came the computer and digital age, and the little guys like Fuji who were leaner and meaner with less middle management glut started to whittle away at them. They spent most of their time creating planned obsolescence products and infighting and not containing costs until they just had to start 'downsizing' instead of imagineering. Then the digital age came and they started rushing to try to reinvent themselves as a digital image and photo business. To some extent they have been successful, but only partially... they had to sell off alot of assets and finally gutted middle management with computers and went through a bunch of CEO's. So they are 1/3 of what they were at their peak... a victim of its own bloated monoploistics complacency.
The USSR collapsed for much the same reasons. A bloated monopoly that was resistant to change and new ideas and tried to create a system with no market forces... no checks and balances... they solved their 'problems' with the pistol and the gulag! Not a very inspiring system to generate or facilitate creative thought!
Its very structure created the tyranny and made it change resistant and that is why such structures are ultimately NOT survivable. So it really has nothing to do with the quality of the people in such a system. Some systems are bad regardless of the quality of the people in it. And in fact I submit that some systems like communism are so bad that you can take any quality of people, put them in such a system and they will become corrupt and evil. Hierarchical monopolies I think do that. A free people of self disciplined creative and responsible people will always thrive in systems like Jeffersonian Democracies, and become voracious infighters in hierarchies. Hierarchies require you have smarties at the top and idiots at the bottom who need to be told what to do.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it is said, and the first sign of such a corruption is a systems refusal to honestly inspect itself and institute change because it is a monolpoly.
This society, the USA is headed in the same direction... the creation of debtor and dependant classes (by out of control spending and the welfare state) of people out of proportion to its ability to create wealth will be its undoing, that and its refusal to defend its borders, language, and culture. Monopolies and welfare states create the feeling that the govt is supposed to take care of us and that it is also the source of all ill, instead of reminding us that our individual and collective fate is largely in our own hands.
And so in less than 250 years we have gone from a free people with small and limited govt to a mess of costly tyrannical crap run by an illegal alien and a bunch of brain dead hippies who were lobotomized by Army LSD experiments in the 1960's.
In the end the Soviet Union defeated itself from within and so too will the USA and the EU. Reagan helped push its rotted edifice over as did the Pope for the USSR. I wonder who will give this nation its final push if we don't turn it around and return to our wise founding fathers' principles?
At some point China and India will collapse too, but as a result of malthusian ecological disaster which for them is on the near horizon.
The second coming can't happen too soon in my book! God and Heaven help us!
Volodymyr
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Post by vsahdneek on Nov 15, 2009 2:04:46 GMT -5
Ps
and if I haven't said it before, let me give you all many Spacebas for my past present and future opportunity to write here my treatises and other examples of windbaggery! LOL!
I really appreciate it... and to think, I used to hate writing term papers ! LOL ! and thanks even to those of you who play lenin's advocate to force me to retort and come up with all this stuff! LOL!
Za Konstitutional Republik!
Volodymyr
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Post by crazydima on Nov 19, 2009 12:25:00 GMT -5
Tovarisch,
Soon we will collect all of your work and assemble it into a massive volume and offer it on QVC.
Or maybe book of the month club.
LOL!
Sincerely,
Dima
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