The Other US Board

[velodya]

Wow. You take a leave of absence, come back. And what would you know? Looks like I've been missing out on the verbal version of Stalingrad. Except our brilliant new Field Marshal adversary appears to have sent in his soldaten without trousers. Well, now that I've "crossed the Volga" I might as well weigh in without the metaphor.

I used to think some people at my high school were dumb. Now I appreciate them. Even more alarming is that I'm starting to appreciate Congress for their wisdom...

Now Marty, if you're reading this: As a relatively neutral person here, you're making yourself look like a total Hawkeyes Suck!.

[Who cares]

I could give a fuk less what a child thinks!!!

Martin

[velodya]

Good thing I'm not a child.

And as a side-note, spelling it wrong doesn't magically make it appropriate language.

[Fuk u chile]

U iz so gud dat I wis dat I wuz yu!!!

Martin

[velodya]

Good progress, keep it up and I won't even be able to tell what you're writing. Which would be rather nice actually.

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

Martin has left the building.

He is no longer welcome on this forum and should not be bothering us.

If he does find his way back on then he will be dealt with accordingly.

Sincerely,

Dima
(the one who used the nuke option)

[baiyodya]

Thank you Dima. Even though he has turned me off of reenacting (including money issues at the moment) I do still wish to come here and learn and keep up to date, so if the time comes, I might still be able to do some reenacting here and there.

So I hope to also hear from those who have left so we might hear and learn more. Anyone have anything good to share??

[dixieflyer]

Good to see you back Baiyodya! I full well understand about financial situations, etc. and reenacting. I hope to see you at Marion one day soon with the Ivansgrad squad.

Yuri S.

[vsahdneek]

Baiyodya !

remember, if you keep a couple items you could still do Red Partizan ... all you really need for that is the rifle, a red star for a old cap, some old clothes you got from goodwill, and an ammo pouch ! just look at pix of partizans and other old pix of civie clothes from that period and I am sure you could throw something together that would work at events that allow partizans.
We have a partizan adjunct unit that forms up with us too if you are out on the east coast or visit here from time to time.

Voloydmyr

[dixieflyer]

With all due respect comrade Voloydmyr, there is much more to doing partizan than "some old clothes you got from goodwill". It is very unlikely that anyone will find properly constructed, period-appropriate styled clothing at a Goodwill store these days. This is part of the reason that "partizan" is looked down upon in the reenacting community now, and has been for years.

Yuri S.

[crazydima]

Tovarischi,

Well...............believe it or not in my neck of the woods such places as Goodwill, Salvation Army, and other such stores handle a fair amount of vintage clothing which are coming from recently liquidated estates of the elderly.

I have picked up some lovely items including coats, hats, suit cases, shoes which are all 1940's pattern for next to nothing as part of my partisan impression. Heck even WWII artifacts are working their way into such places. I need to get some pics of me in my Partisan kit and compare them to period photos. You would be amazed.

As time passes these sources are starting to dry up due to the passing on of that generation. Thus in time it will become necessary for us to make repops of such items.

It needs to be stated that portrayal of Eastern front Partisans can be more complicated than you think. You had folks from all walks of life and all sorts of backgrounds taking part. Are you portraying an urban dweller vs a rural citizen? Are you portraying upper, middle or lower class? Are you portraying more of the partisan type who blends in with the local population or is your look more military in appearance? All of these questions will determine how you should look.

One reason that the Partisan impression is looked down upon is plain simple ignorance by those who do strictly military impressions who have no research invested in that aspect. "A good man knows his limitations." Dirty Harry.

Sadly we have too many folks in the hobby who think they know everything about everything but of course do not. Yet due to their status in the hobby many people listen to what they say and thus establishes re-enactorisms which become very difficult to overcome.

Interestingly there are several items of clothing which are back in style and available at commercial stores which are of period design and useful for civilian / partisan use. Shoes and hats are some of the easiest to acquire.

Retro stores are popping up more and more and they search out such items to be used as inventory for their shops.

So at least in my case equipping for Partisan is not such a hard row to hoe.

Again in the end a person must ask themselves: "What level of anachronisms are they willing to tolerate."

Sincerely,

Dima

[dixieflyer]

Well! I stand corrected then. [bowing] My apologies!

I am glad that you, and others, live in a place where this type of clothing is available. However, as you said, doing partisan, and doing it correctly would really take more research and time than a similar military impression.
The problem used to be, and I imagine in some quarters still is, is that the "partisan/partizan" impression tends to attract those that either:

a) Will not/cannot live by rules and regulations in a unit. Individualisitc cowboys in other words, or

b) People who refuse to spend money or time on an impression.

At least this was how it was back in my day way back in ninteen-canteen.

Yuri S.

[crazydima]

Yuri,

Da! I agree completely!

Some folks view the Partisan impression as an easy way out and that should not be allowed.

It does a great disservice to those who fought in the various resistance efforts during the GPW.

There are some folks whom the Partisan impression fits very well. Some, due to their involvement in other time periods, would like to keep their beard but normally would not be able to with a regular military impression.

This offers that opportunity. Plus it gives the battlefield a little more depth having civilian and partisan elements in the same area as regular military forces. Too often we forget that wars are not fought in a vacuum.

Sincerely,

Dima

[horsesoldier176]

We have a small partisan detachment that goes to events with my unit. When they go with us, they fall in with, and follow orders from our command structure, just like partisans did in real life. The local military commander, had operational control over any partisans operating in his AO.

When they operate alone, we maintain radio, or some form of contact with them. We tend to use them as even farther forward scouts, than our regular mounted scouts, and recon troops.

This allows us to provide the infantry, or mech troops with a more complete picture of the enemy, his dispositions, and his depth of defense.

To me, that is the way partisans are supposed to be used, not solely as irregular infantry. Use them as intelligence collectors, and a means of interdicting the enemies freedom of movement in his own rear areas.

As Dima points out, civilians were everywhere during the war. Combat troops had to deal with them all the time, and having them around in a tactical is a great way to more accurately simulate the reality of war. Mixed in with the common civilians is the occasional "partisan". This guerrilla soldier watches the enemy, counts his weapons, and equipment, and creates the occasional "accident" that blocks the road for awhile. Troops have to get used to this sort of reality, and deal with it appropriately.

Boridin

[vsahdneek]

Komrades,

remember to whom my comment was aimed at, an RKKA reenactor who had already purchased a kit and was interested in quality research, he is here contributing and absorbing, isn't he ? LOL ! so its not like he is off the street and a loser or anything, and I am sure would make wise decisions w/r/t use of clothes for a partisan impression, wouldn't you, Baiyadya ! LOL ! So not to be worryingski !

I have found neat and useful stuff at Salivating Armies and Goodwood stores, we also have a few Veterans 2nd hand stores in my area too, and you wouldn't believe the things you can find at such places. Garage sales, flea markets, ebay, and other on-line auctions too. Estate sales are choice places to find things as well.

I also do Italian, and found a sweater that was configured exactly as a ww2 model I had not been able to find ANYWHERE !!! So w/ all to respect to our aggregate wisdom here, DON'T pass up the opportunity to find the odd gem at the sources I have mentioned ! You'll save a lot of rubles and kopeks too, Komrades !

I think we can give up the idea that any of us would want to degrade the concept of authenticity here, so no one should get 'noid on that issue.

I am merely saying that if you have a good eye for value and hunt around in the appropriate places, one can assemble a partizan impression I think more cheaply than a normal military impression in this hobby, and my desire here is for Baiyodya to be able to continue to participate in a manner that is commensurate with his cash flow circumstances.
We have to remember that not all of us are made of rubles and kopeks, and that younger members like Baiyodya who are 'just starting out in life' so to speak should be accommodated to keep them involved and interested. They are the future of this hobby, and its also the reason why we older hacks should always keep some loaner gear on hand too.

So in my mind, we have to balance the need of the stitch-addicts with the overall needs of the hobby for bringing in new blood, and keeping them in the loop, encouraged, and participating.
.. and of course, protecting them from the raging bs of a recently exited type of person whose name should never be mentioned in polite company ever again.

I for one think if properly handled, the partisan impression can be used by the hobby as a kind of 'gateway impression' to help those whose means and ends are a bit more limited', but can still be useful to the hobby, as well as purely civilian impressions. That is also the reason I like to see women in this hobby serving as auxiliaries for most nations, and actual fighters for the RKKA. To me, its all these 'esoteric' impressions that help give this hobby its depth.
Alot of us do RKKA precisely BECAUSE we have all been to eventually boring GI vs German west front impression events and the attitudes and clodheads that one encounters there.

Sure, no one wants a guy with sneakers and Levi's saying he's a 'partisan', I think at this point in this hobby we don't have to trot out that image any more. But we will always have newbies and people starting out, those with limited means, and those who are interested in 'esoteric' impressions, and we have to find a way of accommodating them too in some manner, especially in times like these where economics makes it hard to keep adequate numbers showing up at events to keep them going.

Remember ! for those events that are public events, if numbers fall off too much, the public loses interest and the event goes by by ! I have already seen a few events go the way of the dinosaur because of falling attendance !

We can be our own worst enemies sometimes, and I have never been a supporter of the idea that this is or has to be a rich man's hobby, elitist, or snooty. In keeping with the original spirit of ingenuity and frugality that was part and parcel of the RKKA and its legacy, I think it would be highly ironic if RKKA reenacting became as expensive and stitch-addicted as some of the other impressions in this hobby. We should be careful to remember the mental status of those we portray so we can portray them accurately ... we are 'actors' of a sort in this hobby, and I have always been of the mind that studying attitudes and beliefs of those we portray was and is as important as the outward physical impression.

I only mention this because I have noticed a trend over the years that is just as bad as farbdom, and that is the attitude that only wealthy stitch-addicts with huge original or NOS type collections need show up to events ... the British Rev War Officer attitude, if you like.
Such folks do not represent the soldats they represent very well, and belong in Rev War units, as , you guessed it, Brit Officers... almost polar opposites of the kind of people we portray !

I DO think, however, that in general, it might be wise if we who do RKKA regular soldats be the ones to have adjunct partizan units attached to us, as it allows the hobby then to screen partizan participation to encourage partizan accuracy, and also to weed out the slackers who as stated, might be trying to do partizan for the aforementioned 'wrong' reasons. So if WE as members of regular units create partisan adjunct units, WE are in a better position to encourage proper research into that area and participation thereof.

Also, if these adjunct units end up being well run and have good impressions, it will encourage people to join THEM if they wish to do this kind of impression, instead of creating ad hoc groups of losers and wannabees !

I put it to the forum, would that not take care of any concerns ? If we take the lead in this matter, we can keep the farbosaurs to a minimum. Besides, as Komrade Boridin said, partizan units were in the main under the control of the local RKKA kommander anyway, and most others were started by party officials or Intel operatives. There really weren't that many bands outside Stalin's grasp, and in both the Spanish Civil War and WW2 he had a habit of seeing to it that they came under his control or liquidated them or allowed his enemies to do that for him. The shining example of this was when he halted in front of Warsaw and allowed Germany to clean that city out of partizans and likewise defeat the Polish Home Army. Partisans did not last very long in the east outside the Zvod's authority. I do not justify this, but merely state historical fact. The notion that partizan activity was romantic is not justified by history. It was a dirty business frought with danger, executions, starvation, desease, and other bad stuff.
But it was a part of history and should be included in the range of acceptable impressions as long as a reasonable amount of research and care is taken in the creation of impressions.

I for one like to see partizans in reenacting, esp at tacticals, because they can be used in interesting ways to make the scenarios more varied and unpredictable, and the capture and proper searching of prisoners was a set of tasks front line troops had to be proficient at and get used to doing adequately. I find that events that have these additional activities keep them from getting bogged down in predictable slugfests and also give younger reenactors the awareness that wartime has soldiers doing alot of varied tasks in between bursts of combat. Events that have the capture or destruction of supplies and intel also can be interesting, and partizans can be useful in this regard as well, both tactically and historically... plus, as Komrade Boridin said, dealing with civilians in some form was a common experience even at or near the front.

Just a few more kopeks for the discussion ...

Volodymyr